Mystery Orchestra 16

[M forever]

I know you are all thirsting for new Mystery clips. Yes, that includes you lurkers who download the clips but don't "dare" to voice your opinions publically. No, I can not track who downloaded the clips, and I don't care anyway. I can only see *how many times* they have been downloaded.

The first round is still going on, and there is still room for discussion of the many Zarathustra clips as I reveal them one by one, but I don't want to torture you, so here is your new Mystery clip.

This time, we are going to listen to the first movement of Beethoven's 5th symphony. I would have given you the entire movement as it is not that long, but I know half of you would waste a lot of time comparing timings and listening to amazon clips, so to save you that trouble, I had to snip off a little at the beginning, but the clip begins just before the expostion of the first movement gets repeated, so you are not missing any music.

I will add more clips later for comparison, and from now on, to avoid confusion, I will just give them letters.

How about we start with "A"?

OK, here is clip A:

http://preview.tinyurl.com/2lem87

14.5MB

[Iconito]

I know you are all thirsting for new Mystery clips. Yes, that includes you lurkers who download the clips but don't "dare" to voice your opinions publically.

Hey! 

Downloading right now... Er... May I suggest we don't have so many clips this time? Maybe just two or three? The reason I ask is 'cause I'm, well, really slow and it takes me a lot of time to do all the listening and put three more or less coherent sentences together with my rudimentary writing skills... On the other hand, I understand you don't have to alter the game in any way because of me so, if everybody is OK with more clips, so be it.

BTW, this is a wonderful initiative of yours, M. Keep them coming.

[Iconito]

OK. Here are my thoughts on clip A (This is useless, 'cause I know nothing. It's like Joe SixPack voicing his opinion on some very fine red wine. But I regret not having my copy of the Inbal/OSR Zarathustra for not participating in the other thread and I do want this Fifth!)

First thing I noticed is that I started my first listen in full "critic" mode, so I would be able to amaze everybody with my acute observations on intonation, tempo, phrasing, conductor's humming, recording quality or how German/French/American/Whatever the Orchestra sounds... Next thing I know, close to the end of the clip, is that I did nothing except enjoying the Music like a child with a candy... Two more listens later nothing changed... So my guess is that either I'm a very forgiving (and/or ignorant and/or halfway deaf) listener or this is a wonderful version, the sound is great, the playing is superb, the tempos (tempi?) are perfect and the players and the conductor are beautiful and good people... In any case, I guess I win!

[M forever]

Downloading right now... Er... May I suggest we don’t have so many clips this time? Maybe just two or three? The reason I ask is ‘cause I’m, well, really slow and it takes me a lot of time to do all the listening and put three more or less coherent sentences together with my rudimentary writing skills... On the other hand, I understand you don’t have to alter the game in any way because of me so, if everybody is OK with more clips, so be it.

I have the same problem with the Mystery Pianist threads, they go way too fast for me, so I asked them to slow down, but they want to play at a quicker pace - it's less a long clip reviewing and discussing thread, more a rapid fire clip guessing game - so why should they wait for old people like you or me?

But MO is much "slower". The first thread has been running for a week or so. So you have plenty of time. I will post more bonus clips, although they won't be "bonus" anymore but simply B,C,D...because a lot of people said that the clip comparison format is the most fun.

And I am here to please y'all, am I not?

OK. Here are my thoughts on clip A (This is useless, ‘cause I know nothing. It’s like Joe SixPack voicing his opinion on some very fine red wine. But I regret not having my copy of the Inbal/OSR Zarathustra for not participating in the other thread and I do want this Fifth!)

Hey! No self-denouncing. If you even post here, you are already part of the "elite". The last clips were downloaded by dozes of people, no doubt some of them the same people who have to most "outspoken" opinions - but only when they know who they are listening to and what preconceptions they can apply to the listening experience. Here, they remain strangely silent. But again, I can only see how many times the file gets downloaded, not who downloads it (see above), and it doesn't matter anyway.

Maybe I will upload the Inbal recording anyway because I think it is much better than many's first impressions seemed to be. I learned a lot from that discussion about how people perceive music and which elements trigger positive reactions in them and which not.

First thing I noticed is that I started my first listen in full “critic” mode, so I would be able to amaze everybody with my acute observations on intonation, tempo, phrasing, conductor’s humming, recording quality or how German/French/American/Whatever the Orchestra sounds... Next thing I know, close to the end of the clip, is that I did nothing except enjoying the Music like a child with a candy... Two more listens later nothing changed... So my guess is that either I’m a very forgiving (and/or ignorant and/or halfway deaf) listener or this is a wonderful version, the sound is great, the playing is superb, the tempos (tempi?) are perfect and the players and the conductor are beautiful and good people... In any case, I guess I win!

We all win here. There are no losers. Except those who listen and don't post, but we don't know who they are.

You don't have to be in "full critic" mode. In fact, I noticed that as an interesting effect in earlier Mystery threads. Once somebody makes negative comments about *technical* aspects, for instance of the playing, a number of other posters quickly follow and point out just how bad it all is. Very interesting. There seems to be a fear there that one might not be "critical" enough. But who even says the negative opinions are "correct"? Maybe they are, maybe they are not.

If we have learned one thing from MO threads so far is that all the endless discussions about which are the "best orchestras in the world" are pretty much all total nonsense. Not that there aren't a number (who knows how many?) orchestras which are really outstanding and which probably can rise a little or somewhat above many others. But it has been shown that most people can not identify these "celebrated" "top bands" in blind listening tests. That shows once again that while there are some truly outstanding ensembles, most of what people think they hear when they listen ot this or that orchestras is hype and preconceptions.

So, back to your review and thanks for that. No need to apologize for liking the clip and not finding anything to nitpick. I think even a clip with clearly audible blemishes can still be an outstanding listening experience. Your assessment of the quality of the music making seems to suggest you think this is a "top shelf" orchestra. Would you like to try to guess which or "which kind of" orchestra this is, maybe try to describe the nature of its ensemble sound and make a guess what playing style this appears to reflect? Again, you don't have to, and my questions aren't meant to "steer" you. I am just asking for more specific points if you are willing to share any.

[MishaK]

You don't have to be in "full critic" mode. In fact, I noticed that as an interesting effect in earlier Mystery threads. Once somebody makes negative comments about *technical* aspects, for instance of the playing, a number of other posters quickly follow and point out just how bad it all is. Very interesting. There seems to be a fear there that one might not be "critical" enough. But who even says the negative opinions are "correct"? Maybe they are, maybe they are not.

I don't know about that. My negative comments about what turned out to be the OSR obviously didn't prevent some people from thinking it was the CSO or even the VPO.

As to MO 16:

Just preliminary comments right now as I have had too much wine for detailed analysis. Very warm sound. very reverberant hall. That's actually the first thing I noticed. The hall sounds very unique. Slight tendency of the orchestra to turn the very first three notes into a triplet (e.g. at 0:08), i.e. accenting the first note - but that is a common problem. Unique oboe sound. That should tell me something, but I am not placing it right now. He/she seems to breathe more than other oboists. There is a Luftpause where there is normally a seamless transition from the tutti to the solo. Somewhat meek bassoons, but otherwise a rather big-boned orchestra. Strings in particular. Brass is rather in the background as well.

[Iconito]

[Long post. Just scroll up! ]

First of all, M, if you upload the Inbal recording "anyway", I'll be enormously thankful!

"We all win here", sure, I know. When I said "In any case, I guess I win" I didn't mean the MO game, but as a listener (i.e. I like the recording, so I win, whether the recording is superb or I'm just unable to spot its flaws. Ja?)

There was some irony intended in that "full critic mode" bit, of course... But the main thing I wanted to convey was how my intention of paying extra attention to every detail very soon went away as I was just enjoying the Music. The orchestra kind of became transparent, invisible. It was just the Music... happening. I think that's one hell of an achievement (or.... keep reading )

I didn't apologize for liking the clip, actually. Let's see how I can say this...... Let's picture a child attending a Magic show. The magician floats his assistant up and into the air. The child cheers. Well, I am (surprise!) the child. I didn't see any wires, so I have no much to say, except that I loved it. Now, if I knew a lot about Illusionism I surely could give a lengthy lecture about the act but, again, I know nothing... What the heck is "the nature of an ensemble sound"? Playing style? Are there many, apart from "good" and "bad"? Of course, I don't expect you to explain these things to me (it would be way out of topic, anyway), but you get my point... Is this a "top shelf" orchestra? I don't know... Is Bernstein/WP "top shelf"? I like this one better. And if it happens to be Juan Carlos Gonzalez conducting the Orquesta del Sindicato de Carniceros de la Ciudad de Río Seco - Ecuador, you won't see me blushing

Oh! I have one specific point, actually, since I just mentioned Bernstein... He drags the tempo at some times (in addition to taking it slower in general), like "wait, let's be really expressive here!". Not so in our clip`, where the pace is kept [cool adjective here to express exactly what I mean, i.e., the opposite of Bernstein's ] kind of Karajan/BP (I have the '80 version... Or was it '79? Well... That one...) Now, I don't know what Beethoven actually asked for. I just like it better that way...

OK. Let's call it a post already!

PS.: I've just seen O's post... See what I mean?

[M forever]

No. What about O's post?

I don't know about that. My negative comments about what turned out to be the OSR obviously didn't prevent some people from thinking it was the CSO or even the VPO.

Indeed. But these orchestras make mistakes as well. Yes, even the CSO. That was my whole point when I said "y'all, don't get too hung up on minor booboos".

I think it was actually more on RMCR that someone pointed out there was a trumpet intonation problem, and then all the following posts were "oh man, what horrible brass playing". Or something like that. I don't remember. The discussion really went nowhere anyway and I let it die. I did't even bother to post the bonus clips anymore. The discussion here is much better.

Unique oboe sound. That should tell me something, but I am not placing it right now. He/she seems to breathe more than other oboists. There is a Luftpause where there is normally a seamless transition from the tutti to the solo.

Indeed there is, a detail that immediately caught my ear, too. I don't think I am giving away anything when I confirm that. But what does it tell us? Maybe it's because the conductor wanted that break there? Or maybe not.

Brass is rather in the background as well.

Like at 0'51, for instance?

[Greta]

First impressions:

I think it is a wonderful performance, one any orchestra I should think would be happy to call their own. The clarinet has a distinctive tone to me, round, clear, dulcet. Superb balance in the orchestra. They have a very full sound on the tuttis and a nice weight in the bottom end.  I like that the brass are a bit lean, they fit well into the ensemble sound. The strings are very impressive. Lush, extremely full sound, great playing and style. The hall seems quite resonant which also helps the orchestra's sound.

The interpretation, pretty straightforward. I am used to Kleiber/VPO, who is faster with more bite and swagger. I like this clip just as much. It's dignified, and also graceful, a little more relaxed. Though not without a great deal of fervor. I really like the tempo, it feels just about right, no sprinting. After the oboe solo, nice drive into the long note and weight there, it propels things into the next section. The tempo is measured and constant throughout, in the more lyrical chamber sections and at the end, in the coda. The dynamic contrast between the light and lyrical and dark, powerful sections is really nice, especially in the development section. The playing and interpretation don't evoke a particular stamp of anyone, it's just all very well-done.

Luftpause - referring to the breath the oboist takes after the first held-over note that begins his solo. It doesn't tell me much, but it shouldn't be a problem for the oboist to play the phrase with no break. If it was intentional interpretationally, it could be to designate the fermata note as belonging to the section preceding, and seeing the oboe solo as a pickup to the section following. If you listen very closely, I think the oboist tongues the last note of the solo twice which is also interesting.

[Valentino]

Being used to C. Kleiber this is a different take all together. I don't think I ever heard a mellower sounding 5th! That's not necessarily bad, but I want hammers in that first mvt!
A great bloom to the sound makes me think of the Concertgebouw from other recordings I have that are done there.
Violins left, basses right. I prefer split violins. Oboe solo "in two parts" is new.

Good to have you back, M!

[M forever]

I don't think I ever heard a mellower sounding 5th! That's not necessarily bad, but I want hammers in that first mvt!

How many versions have you heard?

A great bloom to the sound makes me think of the Concertgebouw from other recordings I have that are done there.

The Concertgebouw is probably not the only concert hall in the world with warm, resonant acoustics, though. Or maybe it is. I am not saying it isn't recorded in this hall. Maybe it is. Or maybe not.
Were you just thinking of that hall, or also of the orchestra residing there?


Very positive reactions so far across the board. I am surprised. That happens rarely.

Every Mystery thread seems to have one point that people get totally fixated on. In a former one on RMCR, it was a humming conductor. They spent a lot of time trying to figure out which conductor is "known" for humming audibly on recordings instead of really listening to the recording. IRCC, they thought it must be Barenboim even though the interpretation couldn't be "matched" to his. It turned out to be a conductor rarely heard humming on disc, namely Mehta. In the last thread, there was this fixation on the "ensemble problems" of the orchestra, I still haven't figured out where that comes from. Now it is the oboe cadenza. Interesting.

If it was intentional interpretationally, it could be to designate the fermata note as belonging to the section preceding, and seeing the oboe solo as a pickup to the section following. If you listen very closely, I think the oboist tongues the last note of the solo twice which is also interesting.

Does he/she/it? Let me ask you this: could it be that the cadenza here isn't interpreted as belonging to either the preceding nor the following section, but as an interlude, suspended outside of time? Just a question. I don't have an opinion here.

Let's see what Beethoven wrote:

[Drasko]

I really like this one, a lot.
Shouldn't strings hold on for touch longer at 0:25 or is that matter of interpretation?

[Valentino]

How many versions have you heard?

I think I know four reasonably well: Toscanini '39, HvK '63 and '77, and C. Kleiber. Difficult not to have heard others, though.

As for the Concertgebouw, I was thinking of the hall acoustics, but how many other symphony orchestras have recorded there?

[M forever]

I really like this one, a lot.
Shouldn't strings hold on for touch longer at 0:25 or is that matter of interpretation?

Maybe. Or maybe not. My opinion does not count here. Yours does. All I can tell you is that Beethoven writes a fermata, not a defined note length here.

As for the Concertgebouw, I was thinking of the hall acoustics, but how many other symphony orchestras have recorded there?

Hard to say. Who knows? This could be a recording of a different orchestra on tour there. Or maybe not. Maybe it isn't the Concertgebouw at all? Or maybe it is. Does it sound like the Concertgebouworkest to you? Or maybe not?

[Valentino]

Maybe it sounds a bit like the Concertgebouworkest with Haitink for Perahia in the LvB PCs, M. I don't dare say it's that venue, orchestra or conductor, because that's a too long shot.

Another idea I have discarded VPO and Böhm in the Grosser Saal, but I don't know if they've done the 5th, so that's a very uneducated guess.

That Luftpause seems like an option the way the music is written.

[M forever]

A Luftpause is actually more something inserted in a musical passage which otherwise goes more or less in tempo, typically to give more emphasis to what follows. This here is not really that kind of situation, the tempo is completely suspended anyway. I would call that here more a "Zäsur". Dunno what the correct English term is. But that about the terminology only as an aside.

But please don't get too fixated on that detail decision here. Let us know if you think it "works" or not, if it is "right" or "wrong", but let's not spend the entire thread discussing just that. It is indeed rather rare, but not unique, so unless you happen to have that recording, it won't tell you much about the identity of the performers. Rather concentrate on the performance overall.

I have 4 more great clips ready for you which I will upload tomorrow, so you can chew on that a little bit before more Beethoven 5 gets served.

[Drasko]

Maybe. Or maybe not. My opinion does not count here. Yours does. All I can tell you is that Beethoven writes a fermata, not a defined note length here.

Then we have a non wallower on the podium.

[orbital]

First of all let me state that I don't listen to this piece very much, the last time I did should be well over a year ago, and I own only two versions: Masur with Leipzig Gewandhaus and a VPO with Hans Schmidt. And when I do, I listen to Masur.

The Pros: Good tempo choice, not dragging and pushing forward. I like that

The Cons: Too polished and flowing for my taste. The attacks are not sharp enough which is cutting into the urgency of the piece. It might be unreasonable to expect to be stunned by yet another performance of this too familiar piece, but it at least has to keep my attention throughout, and I don't know if four movements in this format could do that.

[PSmith08]

This recording puts me in mind of Charles Munch's 1955 BSO record on RCA. I can say that it is not, in all probability, Munch (BSO '55); however, it seems to me that it has an elegance and smoothness that really does remind me of it. Not overpowered or overpowering, and seemingly well-controlled. I'll take a guess, though it's no more better informed than my guess as to what any of you had for dinner last night: one of the regional German radio orchestras. Maybe SWR Baden-Baden und Freiburg.

[Greta]

Does he/she/it? Let me ask you this: could it be that the cadenza here isn't interpreted as belonging to either the preceding nor the following section, but as an interlude, suspended outside of time? Just a question. I don't have an opinion here.

I am fairly certain the last note is articulated twice, and also the last note goes continually into the next tutti with no break, although there is a rest there. That section has always struck me as a surprise in the midst of such stormy music, it doesn't seem to belong, but I think Beethoven's choice to write this suddenly calm, placid solo drives greater impact into the next section.

[M forever]

I'll take a guess, though it's no more better informed than my guess as to what any of you had for dinner last night: one of the regional German radio orchestras. Maybe SWR Baden-Baden und Freiburg.

Indeed, you have no information at all about what people had for dinner unless they told you or you were there. But here, you actually have the object of study itself "in front of you". So *something* must be the basis for your guess. Why not a British orchestra? A French? An American? Or maybe a Russian? Or Czech? Or maybe not. I am not suggesting you should consider these options. I am just asking what gave you that impression. If you think German, why "regional"? And what does "regional" mean?