GMG Listening Group — Shostakovich Symphony № 4 :: 24-30 July 2011

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

I've not heard the Rattle, but I shoud be curious to : )

I've got the Rattle - it was my intro to the piece. I recall liking it a lot; but it's been a few years since I listened to it.

I've been lucky enough to hear this symphony live twice. First time was LSO/Gergiev in St. Petersburg, during the White Nights festival. Second time was CSO/Haitink in Chicago, sitting in my favorite section behind the orchestra. The piece makes a hell of an impression live.

[karlhenning]

Sure does!

Gatti did a great job with it when he guested here at Symphony.

[MDL]

I'm curious. Simple () question also to the other admires of the work: Why? Maybe it helps the seeking amongst us to find a way to appreciate the work...
Hopefully it's not structured like PI...

I can't claim to understand how the 4th moves from one moment to the next (the 5th and 10th are easier to follow in this respect), but the individual episodes are so vivid, striking and imaginative, I'm happy to surrender myself to the aural onslaught. After an hour or so of violence, surrealism, slapstick and more battering violence, the eerie coda, seemingly frozen in shock and horror, is amazing; experienced live, it can be devastating.

[kishnevi]

I've got the Rattle - it was my intro to the piece. I recall liking it a lot; but it's been a few years since I listened to it.

I've been lucky enough to hear this symphony live twice. First time was LSO/Gergiev in St. Petersburg, during the White Nights festival. Second time was CSO/Haitink in Chicago, sitting in my favorite section behind the orchestra. The piece makes a hell of an impression live.

Was the CSO/Haitink performance one of the ones linked to the CSO/Resound release?     I have that one,  Kirov/Gergiev, Rostropovich/NSO, and Haitink/LPO.  I haven't played the last one--just got the box set a couple of days ago, and still have a good half of it to go through (I'm not playing it in order).    The Kirov/Gergiev was my introduction to this symphony, and it remains my favorite.  The CSO/Haitink isn't quite manic enough for me. 

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

Was the CSO/Haitink performance one of the ones linked to the CSO/Resound release?     

I think so. The concerts took place in 2008.

The CSO/Haitink isn't quite manic enough for me.

My recollection is that the performance wasn't particularly manic, though it had other virtues - like a feeling of some gigantic, relentless natural process at work (volcano, waterfall).

[Tapio Dmitriyevich]

I can't claim to understand how the 4th moves from one moment to the next (the 5th and 10th are easier to follow in this respect), but the individual episodes are so vivid, striking and imaginative, I'm happy to surrender myself to the aural onslaught. After an hour or so of violence, surrealism, slapstick and more battering violence, the eerie coda, seemingly frozen in shock and horror, is amazing; experienced live, it can be devastating.

Yes, all you write sums up what I feel about the symphony at the moment.

To ask in a negative manner  : after almost an hour of random and unstructured sound, we're all glad to finally hear the gorgeously eerie coda finale? But why should we wait? We can have our playback devices start a few minutes before the ending of the symphony!

[MDL]

Yes, all you write sums up what I feel about the symphony at the moment.

To ask in a negative manner  : after almost an hour of random and unstructured sound, we're all glad to finally hear the gorgeously eerie coda finale? But why should we wait? We can have our playback devices start a few minutes before the ending of the symphony!

Oooh, "random and unstructured sound"? A bit harsh, perhaps. If you want a symphony that develops in a logical, integrated fashion, Sibelius is your man. Much as I enjoy the violent collisions of mood and material in Shostakovich 4, I'm sure there's some overall plan underpinning the work. Method in the madness and all that. Perhaps one of our professional or student musicians can help me out here! 

[karlhenning]

My recollection is that the performance wasn't particularly manic, though it had other virtues - like a feeling of some gigantic, relentless natural process at work (volcano, waterfall).

Yes;  I shouldn't require "manic" from it;  the piece is richer than that.  It's a little easy to make Shostakovich shrill, but that is a tone which grates before long.

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

Somebody fill me in: are we actually discussing this piece now, or are we supposed to wait for the week listed above? I'm confused.

[karlhenning]

Yes, it's been an active thread, hasn't it?

No, I shan't actually discuss the piece until the 17^th : )

[jochanaan]

I'm curious. Simple () question also to the other admires of the work: Why? Maybe it helps the seeking amongst us to find a way to appreciate the work...

For me, this is in many ways the most brilliant of his symphonies: brilliantly orchestrated, brilliantly structured.  There is also, to my perceptions, deep passion under the brilliant Shostakovich wit and grotesqueries (not that much more grotesque than Mahler, really).  You see a glimpse of the composer he might have become if not for that infamous Pravda article...

A brief note about the organization: The first movement, while seeming to have a dazzling wealth of material, actually is based almost entirely on either the sardonic opening theme or the nostalgic second (which begins on bassoon about 5-6 minutes in).  See if you can hear how almost every passage in that movement relates to either theme.  The second and third movements are similarly tightly organized.

[eyeresist]

You see a glimpse of the composer he might have become if not for that infamous Pravda article...

I listened to this over the weekend, and noticed some similarities to "advanced" effects he used in 2 and 3. I think he saw 4 as an extension of those works, but what's problematic is those shorter works can afford to be essentially rhapsodic. I don't regard 5 as any sort of step back, but he returns to the identifiable structure of 1 which has the practical virtue of ordering the music for the understanding of the listener.

[karlhenning]

I listened to this over the weekend, and noticed some similarities to "advanced" effects he used in 2 and 3. I think he saw 4 as an extension of those works, but what's problematic is those shorter works can afford to be essentially rhapsodic. I don't regard 5 as any sort of step back, but he returns to the identifiable structure of 1 which has the practical virtue of ordering the music for the understanding of the listener.

I hope that my future answers to these questions may prove of interest to you ; )

Yes, it's been an active thread, hasn't it?

No, I shan't actually discuss the piece until the 17^th : )

[eyeresist]

I hope that my future answers to these questions may prove of interest to you ; )

I'm sure they will

[techniquest]

What happened to this discussion? Did I miss it?
I have listened to 3 recordings over the last couple of days: WDR Sinfonieorchester / Barshai; Gurzenich-Orchester, Koln / Kitajenko and BBC Philharmonic / Sinaisky. Out of these 3 it is not easy to come up with a faveourite as there are elements in this complex work that seem to work better than others depending on which recording you hear. Barshai takes the first movement quite slowly - in fact the whole work has a deliberateness about it, until the ostinato timpani come in at that final loud passage in the last movement when it suddenly speeds up - this part is far too fast for me! Kitajenko does a similar thing. Barshai has a superb orchestra with some really excellent brass (liking the tuba - a must for this symphony) and has a very delicate but somehow threatening feel with the quieter passages in the 3/4 section of the finale. I wonder if this symphony has more 3/4 music than just about any other - certainly major sections of all 3 movements (all of the 2nd?) progress at this timing? I wonder if that has anything to do with the ballet music he was writing around that time in that he experimented to see what else he could get from the 3/4 meter other than a waltz? Unlikely, but who knows?
Kitajenko has superb recorded sound on SACD Hybrid discs. That leaves Sinaisky, a live recording by BBC Music from the Proms in July 2000. This is a superb performance overall with the fieriest percussion of the three recordings being discussed here (excellent tam-tam - an instrument that somehow suffers from huge fluctuations in recordings: don't get me started on Mahler 2!).
Mentioning Mahler, I would suggest that this symphony is Shostakovich's Mahler 3. The first movements have a similar feel and, to some extent, structure about them although whereas Mahler uses a lot of 4/4, Shostakovich uses 3/4 (as I mentioned). However Shostakovich appears to have used this episodic structure throughout the symphony. Both symphonies have extended solos for the trombone, both have quiet solos for the percussion (Mahlers are metallic and bass drum, Shostakovich's wooden and snare drum)...
I have some more to listen to: USSR Ministry of Culture SO / Rozhdestvensky and BBC Philharmonic / Herbig (live broadcast from May 2010), so if it's acceptable I'll post more about these later.

[Tapio Dmitriyevich]

Very regrettably, because I wished to get into this Symphony, (but good for the money - which I need) I have an important assignment for an IT project at an IT company since Monday and just spare time left for music listening or GMG, I'm sorry.

[karlhenning]

Very regrettably, because I wished to get into this Symphony, (but good for the money - which I need) I have an important assignment for an IT project at an IT company since Monday and just spare time left for music listening or GMG, I'm sorry.

Excellent news!  This has proven a too-busy week for me, as well.

What happened to this discussion? Did I miss it?
I have listened to 3 recordings over the last couple of days: WDR Sinfonieorchester / Barshai; Gurzenich-Orchester, Koln / Kitajenko and BBC Philharmonic / Sinaisky. Out of these 3 it is not easy to come up with a faveourite as there are elements in this complex work that seem to work better than others depending on which recording you hear. Barshai takes the first movement quite slowly - in fact the whole work has a deliberateness about it, until the ostinato timpani come in at that final loud passage in the last movement when it suddenly speeds up - this part is far too fast for me! Kitajenko does a similar thing. Barshai has a superb orchestra with some really excellent brass (liking the tuba - a must for this symphony) and has a very delicate but somehow threatening feel with the quieter passages in the 3/4 section of the finale. I wonder if this symphony has more 3/4 music than just about any other - certainly major sections of all 3 movements (all of the 2nd?) progress at this timing? I wonder if that has anything to do with the ballet music he was writing around that time in that he experimented to see what else he could get from the 3/4 meter other than a waltz? Unlikely, but who knows?
Kitajenko has superb recorded sound on SACD Hybrid discs. That leaves Sinaisky, a live recording by BBC Music from the Proms in July 2000. This is a superb performance overall with the fieriest percussion of the three recordings being discussed here (excellent tam-tam - an instrument that somehow suffers from huge fluctuations in recordings: don't get me started on Mahler 2!).
Mentioning Mahler, I would suggest that this symphony is Shostakovich's Mahler 3. The first movements have a similar feel and, to some extent, structure about them although whereas Mahler uses a lot of 4/4, Shostakovich uses 3/4 (as I mentioned). However Shostakovich appears to have used this episodic structure throughout the symphony. Both symphonies have extended solos for the trombone, both have quiet solos for the percussion (Mahlers are metallic and bass drum, Shostakovich's wooden and snare drum)...
I have some more to listen to: USSR Ministry of Culture SO / Rozhdestvensky and BBC Philharmonic / Herbig (live broadcast from May 2010), so if it's acceptable I'll post more about these later.

No, you've not missed aught. Probably we should push this out a week (two?).

[techniquest]

OK, so this is now 24th - 30th July...? Gives me a chance to dig out the vinyl recordings too!

[karlhenning]

Groovy!

[jochanaan]

Groovy!

Yep, vinyl is definitely groovy.