Small range, but totally mastered

[Sylph]

I was wondering whether any of you could give me some examples of clasically trained singers who've had or have fairly small ranges, but had a total mastery of it and were or are known as great interpreters? Male or female, it doesn't matter.

[Harry Powell]

The first example that comes to my mind is Tito Schipa. Even in his primes, he would be at pains to go beyond a B, but his "first" high notes (Fs-A) were as perfect as you can imagine in a lyric tenor. He was able to sing mezzavoce beyond F, which is something many high tenors can't do. Pertile wasn't a super high voice either, but was in similar command of his range. I would mention Bruscantini and Cloe Elmo too.

[mjwal]

It depends what "range" means. The late lamented Hugues Cuénod did not have a huge voice - he could not have been one of the 3 tenors - but chose to sing a wide range of superior music from the Renaissance to the modern. You can find him on the earliest Monteverdi recording we have (I think) and singing Dowland, Schubert, Fauré and Stravinsky, among others. Another tenor whose vocal "range" was limited was Julius Patzak, who did not sing any heavier roles than Mime in Siegfried - his repertoire however, like Cuénod's -  was wide-ranging, from Mozart to Schubert, Massenet and Krenek.
So - small vocal range sometimes goes with big repertoire range - as with Schipa, mentioned by Harry below.

[Guido]

I've never heard range refer to vocal weight as you seem to be suggesting here mjwal. Surely range is intended in terms of the range of notes they could sing.

[zamyrabyrd]

I am of the opinion that the lower limit of a voice is a given and shouldn't be pushed downwards. But the upper range doesn't actually have a limit except for how much the chest voice can be easily extended upwards. Baritones usually don't go past an F above middle C except when they sing in the falsetto. Tenors with training can usually bring the chest up to a Bb, but beyond that it can sound strident (like bleating).

Sopranos usually peak at around Eb in alt so usually can't cross the line into Queen of the Night like their much rarer coloratura sisters who chirp the high F's with ease. It has been said that Victoria de los Angeles had a "limited" upper range but I have been of the opinion (and of one of my teachers) that she was more of a mezzo soprano.

ZB

[knight66]

We don't see eye to eye on that last suggestion, but were it true, then her substantial repertoire would have been greatly increased, as in opera she took the Soprano roles.

Mike

[Guido]

Why shouldn't the lower limit be pushed down zamyra?

[zamyrabyrd]

Why shouldn't the lower limit be pushed down zamyra?

I am not an expert in physiology but it seems the thickest muscles of the larynx and vocal chords cannot or should not be stretched or interefered with. An analogy would be string instruments that have the thickest strings as their lowest limits. It is possible in rare occasions to tune a violin in scordatura to have the G string an F# for the Danse Macabre of Saint-Saens but this does not suit the instrument.

ZB

[zamyrabyrd]

We don't see eye to eye on that last suggestion, but were it true, then her substantial repertoire would have been greatly increased, as in opera she took the Soprano roles.

Mike

I know we have been down this road before but I have worked with some women who insist they are sopranos just because they can pass the upper line of the treble clef. A light mezzo on the order of a Fredericka von Stade can also sing some soprano rep but not all.  I actually heard De los Angeles in public in the Scheherazade of Ravel and Ah Perfido of Beethoven.  She was excellent in the first.

However, the quality of the tones is the real issue. The high notes of a true soprano have brighter overtones. Hers don't.  I also remember (but cannot cite right now) where she sings Lieder in the lower key.  This is a dead giveaway.  But there have been women who have straddled the cracks as it were and defy categories - Jessye Norman, Régine Crespin, etc. In the 19th Century one wouldn't have bothered about it as much.

ZB

[Harry Powell]

We might think two another explanations to de los Ángeles problems with the high notes:
a) She wasn't taugh correctly to place them in the mask.
b) She was another example of a voice losing its top due to excess of sonority in the middle fach.

[Xenophanes]

I was wondering whether any of you could give me some examples of clasically trained singers who've had or have fairly small ranges, but had a total mastery of it and were or are known as great interpreters? Male or female, it doesn't matter.

According to some, Richard Crooks, one of my favorite tenors, was limited on the top, though he could actually do the high notes. Here is an explanation on the Bach Cantatas site:

"Although limited in the upper register, Richard Crooks possessed a voice of uncommon sweetness mixed with virility, and he learned to produce the top notes as cleverly mixed head tones."

http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Bio/Crooks-Richard.htm

He certainly could hit the high notes, but he did seem to have to use a different technique to hit them.

What about Fischer Dieskau? I wouldn't consider him to be a Verdi baritone.

[Xenophanes]

I am of the opinion that the lower limit of a voice is a given and shouldn't be pushed downwards. But the upper range doesn't actually have a limit except for how much the chest voice can be easily extended upwards. Baritones usually don't go past an F above middle C except when they sing in the falsetto. Tenors with training can usually bring the chest up to a Bb, but beyond that it can sound strident (like bleating).

Sopranos usually peak at around Eb in alt so usually can't cross the line into Queen of the Night like their much rarer coloratura sisters who chirp the high F's with ease. It has been said that Victoria de los Angeles had a "limited" upper range but I have been of the opinion (and of one of my teachers) that she was more of a mezzo soprano.

ZB

In a chorus, I can sometimes actually get quite low, down E and even D or C. I feel it in my stomach!  Years ago, I couldn't do that, and it doesn't seem to hurt my voice, but I don't, and really can't, push notes that low--I wouldn't be able to do it, i'd lose the notes.  I'm a baritone and I could never get that low in a solo, where my effective lower limit is about G. I have had a high G for several decades, as well, and as I get older, the high Gs have gotten easier.

I have never understood female voices, so I'm not going to comment on Victoria de los Angeles, except she was a fine singer.  She was Mimi in the Beecham Boheme, and we always thought she did it very well.

[zamyrabyrd]

We might think two another explanations to de los Ángeles problems with the high notes:
a) She wasn't taugh correctly to place them in the mask.
b) She was another example of a voice losing its top due to excess of sonority in the middle fach.

On the contrary, VdlA's tones were very much focused in the "mask". A simpler explanation is that sopranos have the nicer roles. Anna Moffo did a convincing Carmen but that doesn't make her a mezzo. I mention her instead of Maria Callas as Moffo was not famous for her chest tones like Callas, but was considered having a light voice.

ZB

[zamyrabyrd]

In a chorus, I can sometimes actually get quite low, down E and even D or C. I feel it in my stomach!  Years ago, I couldn't do that, and it doesn't seem to hurt my voice, but I don't, and really can't, push notes that low--I wouldn't be able to do it, i'd lost the notes.  I'm a baritone and I could never get that low in a solo, where my effective lower limit is about G. I have had a high G for several decades, as well, and as I get older, the high Gs have gotten easier.

When I am totally telaxed or coming out of a cold (don't know why), I can vocalize to a C below middle C or even slightly lower. Usually I can go down to D easily (without pushing of course) and found that most women can as well when there are no other obstructions or tensions.

Intuitively, though, I don't think it a good idea to extend the lower range. To keep the high notes, well, that is a matter of practice. I have a student who is a baritone and can reach a G, but at this point, don't like to repeat it more than once or twice in a session. He can also sing the A above middle C in Largo al Factotum in falsetto and doing it that way seems to me the best policy.

ZB

[Harry Powell]

On the contrary, VdlA's tones were very much focused in the "mask". A simpler explanation is that sopranos have the nicer roles. Anna Moffo did a convincing Carmen but that doesn't make her a mezzo. I mention her instead of Maria Callas as Moffo was not famous for her chest tones like Callas, but was considered having a light voice.

ZB

It may have been a naturally placed voice as middle tones are concerned, but her high notes were rather "open". They sounded more of a shrill, something a good placement in the mask should have avoided.

[zamyrabyrd]

It may have been a naturally placed voice as middle tones are concerned, but her high notes were rather "open". They sounded more of a shrill, something a good placement in the mask should have avoided.

From the point of view of a lyric soprano (me), after about a C above middle C, I don't feel the bulk of the vibrations (pressure, or whatever you want to call it) in the "mask" but going back and up the palate. Humming gives a good idea where the vibrations naturally fall.

ZB

[Harry Powell]

When I am totally telaxed or coming out of a cold (don't know why), I can vocalize to a C below middle C or even slightly lower. Usually I can go down to D easily (without pushing of course) and found that most women can as well when there are no other obstructions or tensions.

Well, everyone's voice sounds darker during a cold. I guess nasal congestion prevents the sound from reaching the upper resonators and it acquires a guttural quality (the "false resonance" the Italians speak of). My voice would clasified as tenor but I sound as a bad baritone when I catch a cold.

[Harry Powell]

From the point of view of a lyric soprano (me), after about a C above middle C, I don't feel the bulk of the vibrations (pressure, or whatever you want to call it) in the "mask" but going back and up the palate. Humming gives a good idea where the vibrations naturally fall.

ZB

Ok, but don't vibrations go through your palate and resonate in the mask? If not, how could you possibly be heard when humming? As far as I know, the whole range must rely partly on the mask, more and more as you go higher. When one listens to singers like Ebe Stignani it's easy to perceive even her lower tones being in the mask. People singing exclussively on chest tones would sound as ventriloquists (and in fact some of them do)

[zamyrabyrd]

Would Bidú Sayão be a candidate for this thread?

Sayão was a soprano on the order of soubrette. She had an almost cultlike admiration in the days of silver screen stars with honeyed voices like Jeanette McDonald's.  Fads change with time and it is practically unimaginable that she would be as popular today.  It seems that megavoices in the 60's (Leontyne Price, Joan Sutherland) followed on the heels of the sweet and saccarine ladies.  As for soubrettes and light voices, I prefer Licia Albanese from that period and later, Rita Streich and Lucia Popp.

ZB

[zamyrabyrd]

Ok, but don't vibrations go through your palate and resonate in the mask? If not, how could you possibly be heard when humming? As far as I know, the whole range must rely partly on the mask, more and more as you go higher. When one listens to singers like Ebe Stignani it's easy to perceive even her lower tones being in the mask. People singing exclussively on chest tones would sound as ventriloquists (and in fact some of them do)

I was just looking for Lotte Lehman's book on singing but temporarily couldn't find it. In it, she has a diagram of where she experiences each note, going slightly higher in the head as the pitch inceases. In fact, the idea of pitch getting higher, because in reality the oscillations just get faster, probably is related to how one feels the notes while singing.  The theory of the registers going back at least 400 years was intuitively developed.

One doesn't sing in the chest but the vibrations are felt below around D above middle C (for women) in the collarbone area. After an E or F and octave above middle C, I promise you that the tones are not naturally felt in the mask (forward resonance) but very much on the palate and increasingly back and up. For men of course it is somewhat different but the principle is the same.

ZB