Program music - is it really that context-dependent?

[Florestan]

R. Strauss was supposed to be superb at depicting things in sound.

I find the notion that one can depict musically a particular philosophy rather flawed. 

[Mn Dave]

I find the notion that one can depict musically a particular philosophy rather flawed. 

THINGS like wind, rain and puppies.

[karlhenning]

THINGS like wind, rain and puppies.

More wind machine, Fred . . . .

[Florestan]

I find it a seriously flawed proposal that if one does not know the program then they would be unable to enjoy or get anything out of the music.

I agree.

[Florestan]

THINGS like wind, rain and puppies.

Wind, rain and puppies do not a philosophy make, though. 

[DavidW]

I can not hear what is being depicted unless I'm told of it in advance.  I listen to music abstractly, but I grant that knowing the program gives another level of appreciation for the piece and both forms of appreciation have merit.

[Scarpia]

I can not hear what is being depicted unless I'm told of it in advance.  I listen to music abstractly, but I grant that knowing the program gives another level of appreciation for the piece and both forms of appreciation have merit.

Generally agree.  Recently listened to Liszt's Faust Symphony.  Would never have guess that I was hearing musical portraits of Faust and Mephistopheles, but that knowledge gives me another thing to ponder and compare to when listening.  I might have noticed that the finale made use of themes from the first movement, but I would not have know that this was meant to suggest Mephistopheles as an alter-ego of Faust, for instance.

[eyeresist]

The three movements of Sibelius' third symphony do seem to evoke similar pictorial emotions in several people I have spoken to about it, despite seemingly no text prompting emanating from the composer. These is a first movement involving some manner of passage, or striving, though not particularly hard-won, a middle movement of romance, dance or peace, and a final movement in which understanding is achieved through the previous two movements - a kind of acceptance or uneasy peace. There are musical elements to suggest very, very broad concepts such as this - the finale utilises an extended postlude type of form, with a certain sense of either receding into infinity, or a steady passage.

What you have described is not "pictorial" but emotional, an area of music which is much less controversial (I think).

For me, the problem with program music is that it can disrupt the purely musical structure which I look for to make sense of the work.

[starrynight]

The power of music is the very vagueness of the purpose it has.  This enables it to transcend both different cultures and different eras. 

Of course some music can have a very specific meaning, music for the theatre (opera, ballet etc) and film is meant to directly express particular scenes within a story.  Even then though it can transcend that sometimes and be listened to without a specific story in mind.  Sometimes this is done by abstracting certain parts of the score into a suite.  Whether music is completely absolute or programmatic it probably still uses a kind of dramatic structure to convey the musical journey and to engage the listener.

[Superhorn]

    Music does not exist in a vacuum ; you cannot divorce it altogether from the extra-musical . 
    Of course ,many works have no program at all and were not intended by the composers to represent
    concrete things or abstract ideas . But they often do seem to have expressive character ,and composers often add
    markings such as "espressivo", "con fuoco",   "dolce" (sweetly") ,  etc to request the performer or performers to    convey some kind of expression .
    Even Stravinsky, who famously declared that music was "powerless to express anything" and that composers "merely combine notes",  wrote some graphically  programmatic music, such as in The Rite of Spring, Petrushka, and The Firebird.. 
   For example, in the fair scene in Petrushka, a tuba is supposed to represent a dancing bear, and it certainly sounds like one !   The shimmering  sounds of the Firebird  are highly evocative .

[starrynight]

Even Stravinsky, who famously declared that music was "powerless to express anything" and that composers "merely combine notes"

I wonder sometimes if we should believe anything Stravinsky ever said lol.

[karlhenning]

Music does not exist in a vacuum ; you cannot divorce it altogether from the extra-musical.

Um, but music by its nature is not representational.

What in the natural world does a major triad, by its own mere nature, "represent"?

[karlhenning]

I wonder sometimes if we should believe anything Stravinsky ever said lol.

So, without being guided by something outside the triad: what does a C Major triad express?

Take your time, we've all day . . . .

[starrynight]

I think nature and the non-musical world made by man is full of sounds.  I don't think it's so much about a single chord, but a rhythm perhaps that can equate to non-musical things like the beating of a heart for example.  Sound waves themselves have a kind of oscillating rhythm/vibrations, being waves of a kind?  I'm guessing a bit on that last point though as I having read up on this subject recently.

[DavidW]

I think nature and the non-musical world made by man is full of sounds.  I don't think it's so much about a single chord, but a rhythm perhaps that can equate to non-musical things like the beating of a heart for example.  Sound waves themselves have a kind of oscillating rhythm/vibrations, being waves of a kind?  I'm guessing a bit on that last point though as I having read up on this subject recently.

Sound waves are caused by vibrations and oscillate with the same frequency.  A pure sound wave is simply a tone at a specific frequency.  You can produce such by banging a tuning fork.  All sound are superpositions of sound waves resulting in complex patterns that can be talking, music, noise etc  so even though each sound wave is periodic, not all sound is, and is thus not necessarily rhythmic.

[starrynight]

And all sound is interpreted by the brain using the reception of these sound waves as well, trying to make sense of the complex sounds around us (just like with music I suppose). 

[Tapio Dmitriyevich]

I first read about the "program music" 'problem' in a booklet from Beethovens 6th Symphony. Program music as some sort of intellectually weak concept, in its weakness only beaten by pop music.

I do not care. I rather like it if there's an underlying program. As e.g. in DSCH 11. Or Sibelius' Tone Poems. It's a helpful programmatic advice and there's still enough room for my phantasy. Finding all the coincidence between the music and the program makes me appreciate the music and composer more. Still, I listen to music and enjoy music.

In case of a Bruckner 5, well then I listen to music and no, I don't create any program in my inner eye. And I'll enjoy it as well, just for the music.

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

I first read about the "program music" 'problem' in a booklet from Beethovens 6th Symphony. Program music as some sort of intellectually weak concept, in its weakness only beaten by pop music.

Intellectually weak, maybe...but as I said above, the program causes no problem for me if it's simple (a mood, a scene). Beethoven 6 is a good example here. Something like "Erwachen heiterer Empfindungen bei der Ankunft auf dem Lande" doesn't get in the way of my enjoyment, because there's no action or drama involved.

I do not care. I rather like it if there's an underlying program. As e.g. in DSCH 11. Or Sibelius' Tone Poems. It's a helpful programmatic advice and there's still enough room for my phantasy. Finding all the coincidence between the music and the program makes me appreciate the music and composer more. Still, I listen to music and enjoy music.

Yes, a sensible approach. I try to follow it, telling myself I don't need to know every little detail of the story.

[karlhenning]

For the record, it was exactly this sort of thing that Satie was wagging his nose at by marking his score with remarks such as "light as an egg" . . . .

[Opus106]

For me, the problem with program music is that it can disrupt the purely musical structure which I look for to make sense of the work.

I'm not sure I follow you. As someone who doesn't "understand" music, the term musical structure, to me, implies something objective, something apart from emotions or evocation of an image in your head, which you can identify. And, isn't it usually the composer's intention that the listener takes in the music along with the programme?