Brookshire criticizes HIP Bach?

[eyeresist]

Now, I don't even know why I posted that joke. I do, however, remember laughing when I posted it.

I laughed too. But now I feel nauseous.

[milk]

I laughed too. But now I feel nauseous.

This got sidetracked. I still think it's an interesting point...As far as Bach's keyboard work on harpsichord, there are so many great recordings. It seemed like Brookshire was making a specific point about the harpsichord but maybe he was really talking about the concertos. I admit I'm less interested in the brandenburg concertos than Bach's keyboard oeuvre. As far as I know, it's the solo keyboard work that Brookshire has recorded himself. If he's saying revisionists have somehow mangled Bach's keyboard work then I'm interested to know who he means and what his argument is all about... But perhaps the whole thing is just too vague. Anyway, I'll leave off with this post unless anyone else is interested in offering their thoughts.

[Superhorn]

   I think this harpsichordist is right.  The HIP movement has gone to far in the opposite direction ; in its zeal to
   eliminate all traces of "inauthenticity" from the performance of Baroque and even later music , too many of
   the doctrinaire HIP musicians,though not all of them , have thrown the proverbial baby out with the bathwater.
   These dogmatic musicians have too often reduced the performance of Baroque music to a sterile didactic
   display of what is currently believed to be "correct performance practice" rather than giving spontaeous
   performances.
   

[DavidW]

Superhorn, I doubt that you've even heard any recent HIP recordings!  

But if you wish to prove me wrong, please provide me with some examples of "sterile didactic" performances, if you can.

[Scarpia]

But if you wish to prove me wrong, please provide me with some examples of "sterile didactic" performances, if you can.

Anything by Trevor Pinnock.   

However I don't find "sterile didactic" to be at all characteristic of HIP in general.  Harnoncourt, one of the earliest exponents of HIP, always emphasized that for early music the score was an outline for performance, not a detailed specification, and that the performer must fill in the expressive details in a proper performance.

[Mandryka]

   I think this harpsichordist is right.  The HIP movement has gone to far in the opposite direction ; in its zeal to
   eliminate all traces of "inauthenticity" from the performance of Baroque and even later music , too many of
   the doctrinaire HIP musicians,though not all of them , have thrown the proverbial baby out with the bathwater.
   These dogmatic musicians have too often reduced the performance of Baroque music to a sterile didactic
   display of what is currently believed to be "correct performance practice" rather than giving spontaeous
   performances.

Norrington's Haydn; Brueggen's live Beethoven; Harnoncourt's Mozart and Purcell and everything;  endless harpsichord recordings of Bach's music which the people who post here have put me on to.  They are all at times, often, as spontaneous and as personal as Mengelberg. But in a different way.

Listen to this, of you don't know it:

http://www.youtube.com/v/qkkuejP3Qro

Of course they may not all be HIP -- I've never studied the styles enough to tell.

[DavidW]

Anything by Trevor Pinnock.   

Well yeah you got me there.   Good thing those recordings are old now, should have added recent.

[Mirror Image]

I laughed too. But now I feel nauseous.

[prémont]

Now, I don't even know why I posted that joke. I do, however, remember laughing when I posted it.

Tell me, Mirror Image, was it your true self or your mirror image, which laughed?

[milk]

Anything by Trevor Pinnock.   

However I don't find "sterile didactic" to be at all characteristic of HIP in general.  Harnoncourt, one of the earliest exponents of HIP, always emphasized that for early music the score was an outline for performance, not a detailed specification, and that the performer must fill in the expressive details in a proper performance.

I like the Podger and Pinnock recording of Bach's violin sonatas. Pinnock's partitas lost out to Suzuki and Leonhardt on my playlists.

[milk]

I should thank Brookshire for teaching me something about Rubato. I understand it better now perhaps. Upon listening to Brookshire's AOF I can see he does a lot with Rubato. For me, it's not a miracle. Nor do I dislike it. It's kind of fun but, for me, it's not one of the top recordings of AOF.

[Scarpia]

I like the Podger and Pinnock recording of Bach's violin sonatas. Pinnock's partitas lost out to Suzuki and Leonhardt on my playlists.

I'm referring to Pinnock's work as a conductor.

[milk]

   I think this harpsichordist is right.  The HIP movement has gone to far in the opposite direction ; in its zeal to
   eliminate all traces of "inauthenticity" from the performance of Baroque and even later music , too many of
   the doctrinaire HIP musicians,though not all of them , have thrown the proverbial baby out with the bathwater.
   These dogmatic musicians have too often reduced the performance of Baroque music to a sterile didactic
   display of what is currently believed to be "correct performance practice" rather than giving spontaeous
   performances.

Here you're including solo keyboard recordings?

[DavidW]

Here you're including solo keyboard recordings?

Milk, meet Superhorn he is our resident anti-HIPster!   From time to time he'll surface to voice his opinion on the matter (which is always extreme anti-HIPness).  If you ever need to get a hold of him, just start a HIP thread and then wait.

[eyeresist]

My guess is the "trve cvlt" HIPsters think Norrington is a sell-out.

[milk]

Milk, meet Superhorn he is our resident anti-HIPster!   From time to time he'll surface to voice his opinion on the matter (which is always extreme anti-HIPness).  If you ever need to get a hold of him, just start a HIP thread and then wait.

Hmm...interesting. It's all a learning experience for me. I only got interested in "classical" music a couple of years ago. Before that I sang and played guitar in a punk rock band. I know no one who has any interest in this subject. I'm absolutely obsessed with HIP performance. I'm not sure I can explain why it gives me so much pleasure. Anyway, love or hate is more than the indifference I get from my friends about this subject. So this is my outlet! My point is that it's all a learning experience for me. As long as people don't throw eggs at each other!

[Marc]

Hmm...interesting. It's all a learning experience for me. I only got interested in "classical" music a couple of years ago. Before that I sang and played guitar in a punk rock band. I know no one who has any interest in this subject. I'm absolutely obsessed with HIP performance. I'm not sure I can explain why it gives me so much pleasure. Anyway, love or hate is more than the indifference I get from my friends about this subject. So this is my outlet! My point is that it's all a learning experience for me. As long as people don't throw eggs at each other!

From punk to classical: hmm, sounds familiair.

You're still a bit punk though, I gather: a true punk doesn't like to throw eggs, he/she prefers bricks!

Now you can smash all the windows that you want!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gpRqmuW7Ak

My personal 'obsession' with classical music isn't something I can share with my closest friends, either. With them I talk about and listen to the Beatles and the Undertones.

So, after fixing my first internet connection, I quickly 'switched' to boards like these, too!

It's very interesting indeed to gather some knowledge about the several backgrounds of classical music, no matter about what period or which composer. In the end you will probably find that your personal tastes have become your personal opinions, too.

To me, personally, HIP is the best invention in classical music since World War II. Since I began listening to classical music (mainly Bach), when I was about 13 years of age, I have liked the sound of old instruments, and I haven't liked large over-romaticized interpretations of 17th/18th century music. These personal preferences were already there before I began reading about the so-called 'truths' in music making.

But HIP is no exception to this rule: there is no objective 'truth' in music making!
So, luckilly, there are dozens of various HIP-interpretations available, from the laid-back Pinnock to the exuberant Harnoncourt, et cetera & et al.

[eyeresist]

The listening backgrounds of the forumites here are admirably diverse. While some were to the manner born, others come from rock and pop, jazz, even metal (as you'll see in the non-classical listening thread). No techno freaks, it seems, though I do have some hardcore* raving in my own background.



( * And I do mean hardcore. When bemoaning Gorecki's 2nd symphony in a different thread, I was tempted to demonstrate just how high is my tolerance for "unlistenability" by linking to Charlie Lownoise & Mental Theo's "Ultimate Sex Track", a piece which I think any reasonable person would find hilarious. Enjoy the original mix: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0LB8lyx-8k - How the heck do we embed youtube videos here?)

[milk]

From punk to classical: hmm, sounds familiair.

You're still a bit punk though, I gather: a true punk doesn't like to throw eggs, he/she prefers bricks!

Now you can smash all the windows that you want!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gpRqmuW7Ak

My personal 'obsession' with classical music isn't something I can share with my closest friends, either. With them I talk about and listen to the Beatles and the Undertones.

So, after fixing my first internet connection, I quickly 'switched' to boards like these, too!

It's very interesting indeed to gather some knowledge about the several backgrounds of classical music, no matter about what period or which composer. In the end you will probably find that your personal tastes have become your personal opinions, too.

To me, personally, HIP is the best invention in classical music since World War II. Since I began listening to classical music (mainly Bach), when I was about 13 years of age, I have liked the sound of old instruments, and I haven't liked large over-romaticized interpretations of 17th/18th century music. These personal preferences were already there before I began reading about the so-called 'truths' in music making.

But HIP is no exception to this rule: there is no objective 'truth' in music making!
So, luckilly, there are dozens of various HIP-interpretations available, from the laid-back Pinnock to the exuberant Harnoncourt, et cetera & et al.

Hey I like your comments. DKs were pretty great! Bach got me into all of this. I'm late to it but it all started with the Goldbergs for me. I don't know why but I just can't get into the modern piano at home. I'm open to it in concerts. Living in Osaka there are not many chances to check out HIP. Although I was fortunate to see Kristian Bezuidenhout play Mozart last year.   

[milk]

The listening backgrounds of the forumites here are admirably diverse. While some were to the manner born, others come from rock and pop, jazz, even metal (as you'll see in the non-classical listening thread). No techno freaks, it seems, though I do have some hardcore* raving in my own background.



( * And I do mean hardcore. When bemoaning Gorecki's 2nd symphony in a different thread, I was tempted to demonstrate just how high is my tolerance for "unlistenability" by linking to Charlie Lownoise & Mental Theo's "Ultimate Sex Track", a piece which I think any reasonable person would find hilarious. Enjoy the original mix: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0LB8lyx-8k - How the heck do we embed youtube videos here?)

Wow! This link takes one a long way from Art of the Fugue!