GMG's Favorite Symphonies

[kishnevi]

ANNOUNCING! ANNOUNCING!
The GMG Favorite Symphonies Thread

Now that the Favorite Chamber Works and Favorite Keyboard Concertos are well underway, it's time to expand our horizons.

GMG FAVORITE SYMPHONIES

Rules will be basically the same as the Keyboard Concertos, but with some changes that I hope will be improvements.

1.  There will be a final total of 100 works on the list.   Thirty works may be listed for consideration at any time.  A work can be nominated at any time until the list for consideration reaches thirty.  At that point,  a new work can be nominated only if a work already on the list is voted onto the final list or voted off the list.

2.  Any work which the composer titled or otherwise indicated that he/she considered it a symphony, will be eligible.  This means that works such as Mozart's Sinfonia Concertante, Lalo's Symphonie Espagnole, and Mahler's Das Lied von der Erde can be considered for the list.

3.  [b]Any which which the composer left substantially unfinished at his/her death will not be eligible[/b].  This means that works such as Schubert's Eighth, Bruckner's Ninth and Mahler's Tenth will not be considered for the list.  Unfinished works may be included.

4.  Tone poems and other orchestral works which the composer did not consider to be a symphony are not eligible.  Thus, while Strauss' s Alpine Symphony can be considered,  Also Sprach Zarathustra can not be.

5.  No composer may have more than two works listed for consideration at any one time.   If a composer has already had two works voted onto the final list,  that composer may have only one work listed for consideration at any one time. This is for the sake of ensuring diversity and a wider spread of composers on the final list.  However, there will be be no limit on the number of works a composer may have in the final list, as long as those limits are observed.    Additionally,  any works which are included on the list under rules 6 and 7 will not be considered  in application of this rule.   [Slashed out portions no longer applicable].

6. Each member of GMG may name one work as Fast Track choice, which will allow that work to be included on the final list immediately.  However, in the interests of diversity,  no composer may have more than two works named as Fast Track choices.

7. There are a number of works which seem like fairly obvious choices for the list, and I am therefore naming ten works as Consensus Choices.   I will be naming works that I feel are general favorites and would be assured of making the final list if subjected to the normal voting process.  I am doing this in the interest of speeding up the voting process and allowing the other members of GMG to nominate works that are not so obvious or not so generally favored.  Certain composers who would at first sight immediate candidates for Consensus Choices,  are not included because it's not immediately obvious which of their works would be the consensus choices (for instance, Brahms, Haydn, Mozart, Prokofiev, Shostakovich and Sibelius).   In formulating the Consensus Choices, I have tried to keep personal preferences to a minimum.  In the interests of fairness, I will not name a Fast Track vote, and not cast votes myself.

8: Voting: Frequency You may cast a vote once every twelve hours.  For purposes of flexibility,  I will allow a three hour window, so you may cast a vote after nine hours have passed since your previous vote.  However, no one may cast more than four votes in any forty eight hour period.

9: Voting: Method.  Each time a vote is cast, the voter must cast one vote of +2 each, two votes of +1 each, and two votes of -1 each, for a total of five votes each time.  At the voter's option, the vote of +2 can be combined with one vote of +1 to make a vote of +3, or the two votes of +1 can be combined into one vote of +2, and/or the two votes of -1 can be combined into a vote of-2.  Each time a vote is cast, there must be a total of 4 positive votes (allocated among either two or three works as either 2/1/1 or 3/1 or 2/2) and 2 negative votes cast (allocated among either one or two works, as either -2 or -1/-1).   If anyone does not cast the appropriate votes,  I reserve the right to cast that vote for them in whatever way I wish.   (I will of course not be rigorous about enforcing this rule for the first two or three days,  to make sure everyone is familiar with the rules.)

Amendment:  No negative votes will be allowed until the list of nominations reaches 30.
  (No longer applicable.)

Amendment: If a work is removed from the list because of a negative vote you cast,  you will be required to use at least one of your positive votes to nominate a new work to replace it on the list if the number of works remaining on the voting list is less than twenty five (25). 
10.  Any work which is in first place and has a seven point lead over the next work on the list of those being considered will be elevated to the final list.  Any work which reaches a vote total of -2 will be eliminated from the list of those being considered.  Any work thus eliminated can be re-nominated after a twenty four period, so long as there is an opening available.

11.  Any questions about applying these rules can be addressed to me by PM or on the thread.  If  I am not sure of the proper answer, I will ask for opinions from the GMG membership and take those opinions into consideration when making a ruling. I will try to be as fair and flexible as possible. All rulings, however, are final and by me.

Note: I am on vacation these next few days; I will resume work on Monday 7/11.   My normal work schedule requires me to work Sunday and Wednesday evenings, so please be aware that any questions addressed to me on Sunday may not be answered until Monday evening, and any questions addressed to me on Wednesday may not be answered until Thursday. (I try to be online at least a little bit on Sunday and Wednesday mornings.)   I work daytimes on Monday, Tuesday and Saturday, so will be able to respond after dinnertime on those days.  Thursdays and Fridays I'm not at work and will be online at various periods during the day.    If I think a co-moderator is necessary, I will ask for volunteers.

Now the, Consensus Choices.

Beethoven 3
Beethoven 5
Beethoven 9
Berlioz Symphonie Fantastique
Bruckner 8
Dvorak 9 ("From the New World")
Mahler 5
Mahler 9
Schubert 9
Stravinsky Symphony of Wind Instruments

(Remember,  some composers are not listed because there are too many possibilities, and therefore I'd rather leave the choice open to the GMG membership!)

[kishnevi]

The List  (100)

Beethoven: Symphony № 1 in C major Op.21
Beethoven: Symphony № 2 in D major Op.36
Beethoven: Symphony no.3 in E flat major,Op. 55
Beethoven: Symphony № 4 in B flat major, op.60
Beethoven: Symphony no.5 in c minor, Op. 67
Beethoven: Symphony № 6 in F major, op.68 "Pastorale"
Beethoven: Symphony № 7 in A major, op.92
Beethoven: Symphony № 8 in F major op. 93
Beethoven: Symphony no.9 in d minor, Op. 125
Berlioz: Symphonie Fantastique, Op. 14
Berlioz: Roméo et Juliette, Symphonie dramatique, op.17
Brahms: Symphony No. 1 in c minor, op. 68
Brahms: Symphony № 2 in D major, op.73
Brahms: Symphony No. 3 in F, op. 90
Brahms: Symphony № 4 in e minor, op.98
Brian: Symphony No. 1, "Gothic"
Brian: Symphony No. 8 in B flat minor
Bruckner: Symphony No. 1 in C minor
Bruckner: Symphony № 2 in C minor
Bruckner: Symphony No. 3 in d minor
Bruckner: Symphony № 4 in E flat major "Romantic"
Bruckner: Symphony № 5 in B flat major
Bruckner: Symphony No. 6 in A major
Bruckner:  Symphony no. 7 in E major
Bruckner: Symphony no. 8 in c minor
Bruckner: Symphony № 9 in d minor
Copland: Symphony No. 3
Dvořák: Symphony № 6 in D major, op.60
Dvorak: Symphony No. 7 in D minor, Op. 70
Dvořák: Symphony No. 8 in G major, Op. 88
Dvorak: Symphony no.9 in e minor, ("From the New World") Op. 95
Elgar: Symphony no. 1 in A flat major, Op. 55
Elgar: Symphony no. 2 in E flat major, Op. 63
Franck: Symphony in D minor, M48
Haydn: Symphony no. 92 in G major "Oxford" Hob: I:92
Haydn: Symphony № 102 in B flat major
Haydn: Symphony № 103 in E flat major
Haydn: Symphony № 104 in D major
Ives: Symphony No. 4
Kalinnikov: Symphony no. 1 in g minor
Kalinnikov: Symphony No. 2 in A major
Liszt: Eine Faust-Symphonie in drei Charakterbildern (nach Goethe), S.108
Liszt: Eine Symphonie zu Dantes "Divina Commedia", S.109
Magnard, Symphony No. 4 in C sharp minor, Op. 21
Mahler: Symphony no. 1 in D major
Mahler: Symphony no. 2 in c minor ("Resurrection")
Mahler: Symphony no. 3 in d minor
Mahler: Symphony no. 4 in G major
Mahler: Symphony no. 5 in c sharp minor
Mahler: Symphony no. 6 in a minor ("Tragic")
Mahler: Symphony no. 7 in e minor
Mahler: Symphony no. 8 in E flat major ("Symphony of a Thousand")
Mahler: Das Lied von der Erde
Mahler: Symphony no. 9 in D major
Mendelssohn: Symphony No. 3 in A minor, Op. 56, "Scottish"
Mendelssohn: Symphony No. 4 in A major "Italian"
Mozart: Symphony No.38 "Prague" in D major, K.504
Mozart: Symphony № 39 in E flat major, K.543
Mozart: Symphony № 40 in g minor, K.550
Mozart: Symphony № 41 in C major, K.551 "Jupiter"
Nielsen: Symphony no.4, "The Inextinguishable"
Nielsen: Symphony No. 5, Op. 50
Prokofiev: Symphony № 1 in D major, op.25 "Classical"
Prokofiev: Symphony № 2 in d minor, Op. 40
Rachmaninov: Symphony No. 2 in E minor, Op. 27
Schreker: Chamber Symphony
Schubert: Symphony no. 4 in c minor ("Tragic"), D.417
Schubert: Symphony no. 8 in b minor ("Unfinished") D.759
Schubert: Symphony no. 9 in C major, D. 944
Schumann: Symphony No. 1 in B flat major, op.38 "Frühlingssinfonie"
Schumann: Symphony № 2  op.61
Schumann: Symphony № 3, Op. 97 'Rheinische'
Schumann: Symphony No. 4 in D minor Op. 120
Shostakovich: Symphony No. 1 in F minor, Op.10
Shostakovich: Symphony no. 4 in c minor, Op.43
Shostakovich: Symphony no. 5 in d minor, Op. 47
Shostakovich: Symphony № 10 in e minor, op.93
Shostakovich: Symphony No. 15 in a minor, Op. 141
Sibelius Symphony №1 in e minor, Op. 39
Sibelius Symphony no.2 in D major, Op.43
Sibelius: Symphony no.3 in C major, Op.52
Sibelius: Symphony № 4 in a minor, Op. 63
Sibelius: Symphony no.5 in E flat major, Op.82
Sibelius: Symphony no. 6 in d minor, Op. 104
Sibelius: Symphony no. 7 in C major, Op. 105
R.Strauss: Eine Alpensinfonie, op.64
Stravinsky: Symphonies of Wind Instruments
Szymanowski: Symphony No. 3, Song of the Night op.27
Tchaikovsky Symphony No. 1 in g minor, "Winter Daydreams"
Tchaikovsky Symphony No. 2 in c minor, Op. 17 "Little Russian"
Tchaikovsky: Symphony No. 3 in D major, Op. 29 'Polish'
Tchaikovsky: Symphony № 4 in f minor, Op. 36
Tchaikovsky Symphony No. 5 in e minor, Op. 64
Tchaikovsky: Symphony № 6 in b minor ("Pathétique"), Op.74
Vaughan Williams: Symphony № 1 "A Sea Symphony"
Vaughan Williams: Symphony No. 2, A London Symphony
Vaughn Williams: Symphony No. 5 in D major
Vaughan Williams: Symphony № 7 "Sinfonia antartica"
Vaughan Williams: Symphony № 8 in D minor
Vaughan Williams: Symphony No. 9 in E minor

[eyeresist]

No Bruckner 9th? Really? Astonishing.


Mahler: Symphony No. 2 "Resurrection" +2
Bruckner: Symphony No. 4 in E-flat major, WAB 104 (1887-8 revised version) +1
Schubert: Symphony No. 3 in D major, D.200 +1

FAST TRACK Kalinnikov: Symphony No. 1 in G minor


I'd like to include the Nowak edition of Brucker's 4th 1886 version, but don't want to confuse the matter.
I don't think I should be casting negative votes at this early stage.

[Mirror Image]

No Vaughan Williams in the consensus list?

[kishnevi]

No Vaughan Williams in the consensus list?

Which Vaughn Williams would it be?

There are several options, and if I picked one, it would simply be imposing my personal preference on the list.  I tried to stick to ten symphonies that almost everyone would agree on.
In the same way, which Brahms or Mendelssohn or Prokofiev or Sibelius should go on the list?    Is there one that's obviously better than the rest of Sibelius's symphonies?  So let the GMG community decide.

No Bruckner 9th? Really? Astonishing.


FAST TRACK Kalinnikov: Symphony No. 1 in G minor


I don't think I should be casting negative votes at this early stage.

I was undecided about the B9.  There is after all an argument to be made that it really is complete as it stands. 
So I will leave it to the membership.  If enough people  think it should be allowed,  I'll  declare it eligible.

As for the negative votes--you have a point.   Negative votes would knock almost everything off the list before it was formed if we start them now.  Should have thought of that before. 

Rule amendment--no negative votes until the list of nominations reaches 30.

[kishnevi]

No Bruckner 9th? Really? Astonishing.



Bruckner: Symphony No. 4 in E-flat major, WAB 104 (1887-8 revised version) +1


I'd like to include the Nowak edition of Bruckner's 4th 1886 version, but don't want to confuse the matter.

May I suggest not specifying which version?  This actually is one of the reasons why I ruled out uncompleted works.  Which version of Mahler 10 would we pick, for instance?

[eyeresist]

I agree re Vaughan Williams - he is loved, but I'm not sure how widely. And I think opinions of the "best" would be sharply divided between 2, 4, 5 and 6 (while I would favour the last three). Best to let the thread decide.


Regarding Bruckner 4, I agree in principle that naming versions is unhelpful, but some differentiation MUST be made, as the early versions differ vastly from the later ones. Maybe we could just call it the "revised"?

[DavidW]

That consensus list doesn't look right at all.  Since when do more than me and a few others adore the Schubert 9 on this board?  Why the Bruckner 8, it should be the 9 or perhaps 4?  By choosing lvb 3, 5, 9 you disallow any other choices, and I believe the 7th is actually more popular than at least one of those symphonies.  And that Berlioz symphony?  It's pretty good, but hardly a consensus work.  And that Stravinsky symphony, really?

Those are pretty good works on the list, but I would not call them consensus works.  Not even the Mahler ones, many Mahlerites choose #2 over all others, and the #6 would have a very good chance of beating #5 on gmg.  Oh there are also several posters that prefer Dvorak's 7th over his 9th.

I say get rid of the consensus list!!

[starrynight]

Which Vaughn Williams would it be?

There are several options, and if I picked one, it would simply be imposing my personal preference on the list.  I tried to stick to ten symphonies that almost everyone would agree on.
In the same way, which Brahms or Mendelssohn or Prokofiev or Sibelius should go on the list? 

Pretty obviously Brahms 4 is his most acclaimed symphony.  And Mozart 41 is to most people is a great work. 

[eyeresist]

That consensus list doesn't look right at all.  Since when do more than me and a few others adore the Schubert 9 on this board?  Why the Bruckner 8, it should be the 9 or perhaps 4?  By choosing lvb 3, 5, 9 you disallow any other choices, and I believe the 7th is actually more popular than at least one of those symphonies.  And that Berlioz symphony?  It's pretty good, but hardly a consensus work.  And that Stravinsky symphony, really?

Those are pretty good works on the list, but I would not call them consensus works.  Not even the Mahler ones, many Mahlerites choose #2 over all others, and the #6 would have a very good chance of beating #5 on gmg.  Oh there are also several posters that prefer Dvorak's 7th over his 9th.

I say get rid of the consensus list!!

I was too shy to say it, not wanting to speak for the "consensus", but yes, I agree with all your points. Of course, if this list is ultimately going to contain 100 entries, most of these items will make the cut, but I think only the Beethoven 3rd could be certain of winning a majority vote (I'd like to cast a vote for the Pastoral, but I'm afraid that work lacks "cred"). A consensus list would include Mozart's 40th and Brahms's 4th.

[mc ukrneal]

These rules are a bit confusing. I would consider simplifying - the easier it is, the more people will participate.

I dislike fast-tracking anything. If speed is the desire, do a series of polls. That was something I was thinking of doing anyway myself. Maybe not now. As to your choices, I have no idea how Stravinsky is a concensus choice. It's an ok piece, but to fast-track it compared to the best Brahms, Sibelius, Schumann, etc. Well, my opinion is that it is far down the list compared to many. The same with Kalinnikov. That is even more of an odd choice. These seem to be eccentric choices to me - not anything resembling a consensus.

[eyeresist]

Kalinnikov an "eccentric" choice?      

[Carnivorous Sheep]

A consensus list would, naturally, lead to many objectiosn from many voices, as it naturally contains a large element of subjectivity.

Rather than expending efforts on the consensus list, why not spend your time voting in your favorites? =P

+2 Brahms' 4th
+1 Beethoven's 7th
+1 Beethoven's 4th

FAST TRACK: Schubert's 4th Symphony

[mc ukrneal]

Kalinnikov an "eccentric" choice?      

Well, maybe not the right word, but not a top 10 symphony or top 20. Not even a top 50 in my book, but once past a certain point personal taste starts to become a bigger factor. I mean, Haydn has at least 5-10 symphonies I'd put ahead and same with Mozart (jsut to mention a couple).

[Brian]

Oh there are also several posters that prefer Dvorak's 7th over his 9th.

Yep, as an ardent Dvorak lover and GMG self-appointed Dvorak Doyen  I would make it my first order of business to vote down the 9th and put the 8th on the list instead. However, I am avoiding all of these threads so someone else will have to do it for me. 

[North Star]

+3 Beethoven's 7th
+1 Brahms's 3rd

Fast track: Sibelius's 3rd

No negative votes

[starrynight]

The 9th is more popular in the world though, so it would be more of a consensus choice.  Many people probably haven't even heard Kalinnikov, so hardly a consensus choice.

[Amfortas]

I want to fast-track Sibelius Symphony no.5 

Mahler 9 +2
Mahler 5 +1

Beethoven 3
Beethoven 5
Beethoven 9
Berlioz Symphonie Fantastique
Bruckner 8
Dvorak 9 ("From the New World")
Mahler 5
Mahler 9
Schubert 9
Stravinsky Symphony of Wind Instruments

[karlhenning]

Just an orthographic note: the Stravinsky work is Symphonies [pl] of wind instruments.

Carry on.   Will vote, myself, presently . . . .

[Grazioso]

Kalinnikov an "eccentric" choice?      

Kalinnikov a good choice.