Tarot Cards

[Brahmsian]

Anybody into Tarot Card reading?  I just recently got into it, only a few weeks ago. 

[kishnevi]

I used to be very into Tarot, but not as much now.  I've got a number of sets,  including some bought for purely artistic value of the cards. 

I never found it to be accurate in predictions, but with the more complex spreads it's a  useful  means of thoroughly analyzing a problem,  because you have to think how the cards match up with the situation at hand.
There's a three stage reading made up by modern followers of the Golden Dawn that's very useful in that way, but probably not for a beginner.  You can find it in some of the books or decks written/issued by Robert Wang.

Personally,  the deck I relate to best on the artistic and emotional levels is Crowley's Book of Thoth,  If you seriously get into Tarot, that's a must have.  But if you're not seriously into it,  don't get it (unless you like the artwork.)

[Brahmsian]

The set I have is Universal Waite Tarot.

I usually don't do the complex 10 card Celtic spread.   Sometimes I just do a simple 5 card reading: a) Present position in the world.  b) What you are expecting    c)  What you are not expecting that is coming   d) Your short-term future   e)  Your long-term future.

My friend has a more 'beginner set', with much less convoluted descriptions and meanings.  And also not written in Old English.  Mine is a more traditional set.  I love the artwork. 

[kishnevi]

The set I have is Universal Waite Tarot.

I usually don't do the complex 10 card Celtic spread.   Sometimes I just do a simple 5 card reading: a) Present position in the world.  b) What you are expecting    c)  What you are not expecting that is coming   d) Your short-term future   e)  Your long-term future.

My friend has a more 'beginner set', with much less convoluted descriptions and meanings.  And also not written in Old English.  Mine is a more traditional set.  I love the artwork. 

Actually, the ten card spread was invented by Waite for beginners.   It's the first spread I learned.   The artwork on the Rider Waite deck (your deck is a modified version of that one) is generally highly regarded-- a woman named Rider did the actually artwork based on Waite's instructions.

If I can find a description of the three phase spread online, I'll post it, so you can see what a really complex spread looks like.  At certain points, every card in the deck is on the table,  and might possibly be read.  (They're laid out in a circle, and you skip around the circle using certain intervals between cards until you end up at the very first card you read.  Usually you don't read all of them, but it's theoretically possible that you will need to.)  And you have to remember a whole bunch of magical symbolism such as the signs of the Zodiac and the planets, the Hebrew alphabet, the alchemical elements, etc.    I said it's probably not for beginners.  I should have said, it's definitely not for beginners.

[Mn Dave]

I agree that it's an interesting way to analyze a problem.

[eyeresist]

I've been getting into the tarot this year, after watching a short extra on the DVD of Jodorowsky's The Holy Mountain. I must mention that I don't believe in anything supernatural, but I find it a surprisingly useful tool for examining aspects of one's thinking which are usually not apparent to one's self.

A friend gave me a deck - it was the Heironymous Bosch deck, which is not that useful for readings due to the bizarre and morbid appearance of each card. But you can still do a reading based on the straight meanings of the cards.

Initially I was doing a straight 3 card layout - past, present, future. I now mostly use a demo software version called Free Mystic Tarot, which uses the 10 card Waite layout. But the card designs and the meanings seem wrong to me and are not very useful, so I refer to a list of meanings I have compiled from the LWB that came with the Bosch deck, the Rider-Waite cards (I found a low-res deck online and compiled it into a Powerpoint doc), and the Ask The Answer website. (The Bosch deck is Italian, which makes me wonder about the differences between the English/French versus the Italian traditions.) I add or modify this list as inspired by each reading.

I have Paul Huson's book Mystical Origins of the Tarot: From Ancient Roots to Modern Usage. It is informative, but I found the style a bit dull. Again, his very Western-slanted history made me wonder about continental folk traditions that maybe haven't been covered much in English.

Favourite suite? Cards?

[Brahmsian]

A friend gave me a deck

I found out from a friend, after the fact, that a Tarot Card deck set is only supposed to be given to a person as a gift?  Thus, I may end up giving my sister my Tarot Set, and ask her to buy me one!  Problem solved. 

[kishnevi]

I found out from a friend, after the fact, that a Tarot Card deck set is only supposed to be given to a person as a gift?  Thus, I may end up giving my sister my Tarot Set, and ask her to buy me one!  Problem solved. 

Pure bunk.   Unless you want to consider them  as gifts to yourself.
The key is to experiment with several decks until you find the one whose artwork and general style work best for you.

A friend gave me a deck - it was the Heironymous Bosch deck, which is not that useful for readings due to the bizarre and morbid appearance of each card. But you can still do a reading based on the straight meanings of the cards.

Initially I was doing a straight 3 card layout - past, present, future. I now mostly use a demo software version called Free Mystic Tarot, which uses the 10 card Waite layout. But the card designs and the meanings seem wrong to me and are not very useful, so I refer to a list of meanings I have compiled from the LWB that came with the Bosch deck, the Rider-Waite cards (I found a low-res deck online and compiled it into a Powerpoint doc), and the Ask The Answer website. (The Bosch deck is Italian, which makes me wonder about the differences between the English/French versus the Italian traditions.) I add or modify this list as inspired by each reading.

The difference is not so much between Italian or Continental decks and English decks as it is between decks that try to keep the original medieval/early Renaissance designs and decks that try to make use of the diverse occult  symbolism that has become associated with the tarot among New Age/ceremonial magic/occult and esoteric groups.  Rider Waite is one of the latter, and the decks I've used most are from that group.  As for the Bosch deck, I'm not familiar with it, but  it's possible that the artist/designer came up with variations on the traditional meanings to fit the images he used as illustration.  A lot of modern decks do that.

Decks I find useful-- for the occult versions, two decks based on the Golden Dawn designs, one by Robert Wang and the other by a husband and wife team named Cicero; the Book of Thoth, which was designed by Aleister Crowley,  the Aquarian Tarot, which is really a straight reworking of the Rider Waite deck in a graphics style common in the 1970s.   With these decks, the more familiar you are with the Golden Dawn and Thelema systems, the better.  For the non occult versions--the Marseilles Tarot, which is based on the traditional folk Tarot drawings of the early Renaissance,  the Swiss IJJ, which is a 19th century version in which some of the cards are renamed and the imagery reflects the 1800s,  the Renaissance Tarot, which is a modern deck in which the artist used Renaissance based imagery, the Celtic Tarot, in which the images are based on Celtic imagery, and the Ukiyo-e deck, in which the images are based on Japanese prints.    Among the three latter, the designers modified some of the traditional meanings to accord with their own overall concepts.

There are also Tarot decks which you might want to own simply because of the aesthetic value of the images,  even if you don't actually make use of the decks themsevles. 

I have Paul Huson's book Mystical Origins of the Tarot: From Ancient Roots to Modern Usage. It is informative, but I found the style a bit dull. Again, his very Western-slanted history made me wonder about continental folk traditions that maybe haven't been covered much in English.

Probably not, and probably not in any other language. (I'm not at all familiar with Huson.) The whole history of the subject prior to the 19th century is rather sketchy, since no one really documented anything prior to the late 1700s/early 1800s and even that little was already distorted by people trying to prove one or another esoteric claim, and anything after that is correspondingly less connected to actual folk traditions as esoteric writers took over the field.   The only hard evidence we have is whatever decks have survived in whole or in part from before 1750, and that seems to be precious little.   But what evidence we do have suggests that the cards were first used for playing card games, and only later adapted for fortune telling; and the claims of mystical symbolism to be found in the original decks should be treated with extreme skepticism.

[eyeresist]

Hmm, yes, I recall an Amazon commentor complaining about the Christianisation of the Waite deck. I pointed out that if anything he DE-Christianised it, changing the Pope to the Heirophant for instance. OTOH, Swords 3 in his deck certainly looks like the sacred heart of the catholics. As long as it speaks to you, I suppose it doesn't matter what the imagery. But I draw the line at some of those kitchy themed decks. My Bosch deck was done by the Italian group Lo Scarabeo, and is really beautifully done. They also do a Golden Dawn deck which I was unable to preview. But they also do these:

 

Yikes! I guess somebody likes them...

[kishnevi]

Hmm, yes, I recall an Amazon commentor complaining about the Christianisation of the Waite deck. I pointed out that if anything he DE-Christianised it, changing the Pope to the Heirophant for instance. OTOH, Swords 3 in his deck certainly looks like the sacred heart of the catholics. As long as it speaks to you, I suppose it doesn't matter what the imagery. But I draw the line at some of those kitchy themed decks. My Bosch deck was done by the Italian group Lo Scarabeo, and is really beautifully done. They also do a Golden Dawn deck which I was unable to preview. But they also do these:



Yikes! I guess somebody likes them...

Yes,  I'll give those ones a pass. 

Waite's 3 of Swords is actually a reference to the Gospel prediction  that the Virgin Mary's heart will "be pierced with swords"--IOW, the Mater Dolorosa/Mother of Sorrows imagery.  In Qabalistic symbolism, the third card of the suit is a reference to Binah, the Mother, and Binah in the context of the Swords suit is a good fit for that.

Meanwhile, these are the Golden Dawn decks I prefer:


The Cicero one is the first one.   Both Cicero and Wang tried to recreate the actual Golden Dawn cards;  Crowley created new versions, and made changes to accord with his own system, Thelema.
The Ciceros have also published something called the "Enochian Skrying Tarot", which sounds interesting if you're into Golden Dawn stuff, but has not direct relation to traditional Tarot.

The Lo Scarabeo version looks interesting but I don't think the style would click for me.

And here's one I like simply because I find the artwork to be superb, even though I don't actually use it:

[zamyrabyrd]

I consult the Bible and that's IT.

ZB

[kishnevi]

Here's some of the other decks I mentioned:


The Celtic Tarot  is apparently not available on Amazon, which doesn't surprise me, since I've had several of these decks for twenty or thirty years.

Since the Marseilles Tarot designs are essentially in the public domain,  more than one company has published a set.  Mine is by US Games Systems, but I don't see it on Amazon.  Two others, including one by Lo Scarabeo


And as the last image of the day,  here's a set whose artwork is nice and design concept are interesting (the Minor Arcana images for each suit form a continual story, starting with the Ace and working up to the Ten) but which I've never felt comfortable actually using.

[Ten thumbs]

If there are three of you and you have the shorter continental pack, you can always play at Tarock. I had the rules for this once. I think it's in the Penguin book of card games for three players.

Note: this is Austrian Tarock not Bavarian.

[Brahmsian]

I consult the Bible and that's IT.

ZB

What does that have anything to do with Tarot Card reading?   

Is there really anything wrong with doing Tarot Card readings, seriously man?  I'm sure most people (including me) don't take Tarot as being anything much more than a pastime.  I think God will forgive me once I enter the gates of heaven, for having some fun with Tarot Cards.   It's not blasphemy. 

[eyeresist]

Well, you know, there are several divination systems that use the bible. Basically, pick a page at random and stick in a pin.
But I understand plenty of tarot practitioners deny the tarot's use for divination as such. Jodorowsky said that if you think you can predict the future, you're fooling yourself. And he's into all kinds of crazy stuff!

Those are some mighty pretty decks, Jeffrey. I'm not quite dure about that art nouveau one (bit kitschy?), but the Scapini looks great - I love the authentic medieval look they have achieved. The Japanese one also appeals, as I am interested in Japanese culture. I'd love to get into collecting one day... $$$

[Brahmsian]

I saw even a Kama Sutra Tarot deck.  Hah!   

[eyeresist]

  For people with only one thing on their minds....

[Brahmsian]

For people with only one thing on their minds....

Obviously.

[kishnevi]

The artwork on the Rider Waite deck (your deck is a modified version of that one) is generally highly regarded-- a woman named Rider did the actually artwork based on Waite's instructions.

a d'oh moment there.  The artist was Pamela Colman-Smith.  Rider was the publishing company.

If I can find a description of the three phase spread online, I'll post it, so you can see what a really complex spread looks like.  At certain points, every card in the deck is on the table,  and might possibly be read.  (They're laid out in a circle, and you skip around the circle using certain intervals between cards until you end up at the very first card you read.  Usually you don't read all of them, but it's theoretically possible that you will need to.)  And you have to remember a whole bunch of magical symbolism such as the signs of the Zodiac and the planets, the Hebrew alphabet, the alchemical elements, etc.    I said it's probably not for beginners.  I should have said, it's definitely not for beginners.

Another instance of memory failure.  It's a five phase procedure, and up to half the deck is on the table to be read during one phase.  I've typed it up in as brief a form as I could to make it undestandable.  Some explanations were necessary, they're at the end.

The Golden Dawn Tarot Method

Choose a card (the Significator (S.)) to represent the Querent (Q.), based as much as possible on personality and character and not on physical type.

Invoke Divine Aid in a ritual manner as you are most used to do so.

Give cards to Q. to shuffle while thinking of the problem with full attention, ending with a cut of the cards.

First Operation

Cut the deck into two stacks, with the top half to the left.  Then cut each stack again in the same manner, so you end with four stacks, representing in series the letters of the Tetragrammaton, YHVH, from left to right.

Find S. If in the  Y pack, the question refers to work, business, career, etc.  If in the first H pack, to love marriage, pleasure.  If in the V pack, trouble, loss, misfortune, etc., if in the final H pack, to money, goods and purely material matters. 
Confirm with Q. the nature of the question.  If the question does not match, abandon the divination.
If the question does match, then spread out the pack containing S.  face upwards, count in the direction which S. faces. 
For Kings, Queens, Knights (Princes) count 4
For Pages (Princesses) count 7
For Aces count 11
For the numbered small cards, count the number of the card. 
For the elemental trumps, count 3.
For the planetary trumps, count 9.
For the zodiacal trumps, count 12.
Continue in this manner, telling a connected story, until you return a card already read.
Pair up the cards on each side of S., reading them together to continue with the story, then the cards on the outside of each of those, and so on for the entire stack.  This should be a summary of the situation prior to the reading.  Q. may confirm some of it, but not all of it, and may not be able to confirm many of the details.  This should be taken as a sign of Q.'s limited knowledge of the circumstances.  But if even the main lines of the story do not match Q.'s knowledge, then abandon the divination.

Second Operation.

Q. shuffles and cuts as before.

Deal the pack into twelve stacks, representing the twelve astrological houses.  S. should be in the stack connected to the problem, or a cognate house.  If not, abandon the divination. 
Take the stack in which S. is found and read the cards in the same manner as before, including pairing them off.

Third Operation

Is done exactly as the second, except here the twelve stacks represent the signs of the Zodiac.

Fourth Operation.

Q. shuffles and cuts as before.

Instead of dealing out the cards, go through the deck until you locate S, and place S. on the table, and then place the thirty six cards immediately following  in a circle around S. on the table.  Then count from S. with the card which immediately followed him as the second card, and count and pair as before.

Fifth and final operation

Q. shuffles and cuts as before.

Deal into ten packs representing the Ten Sephirot of the Tree of Life.   Locate S. as before, but S. does not appear in the "correct" stack, do not abandon the divination.
Taking the stack in which S. appears, count and pair as in the preceding operations.

If a card is reversed, it does not affect the meaning.  What does affect are the cards immediately surrounding it.  If neighboring cards belong to the same or allied elements, as Water next to Water or Water next to Air, their influence and meaning are greater; if neighboring card belong to hostile elements, as Water next to Fire, then their influence is weakened or cancelled out.  If the neighboring cards are hostile to each other, so that a Water card lies next to an Air card which lies next to a Fire card, they cancel each other out, so in this example neither the Water nor the Fire card will have an effect on the Air card.

Elemental trumps: the Fool (Air, Aleph), the Hanged Man (Water, Mem),  Judgment (Fire, Shin)
Planetary trumps: Magician (Mercury), Empress (Venus),  Priestess (Moon), Universe (Saturn),  Wheel of Fortune (Jupiter), Tower (Mars), Sun (Sun)
Zodiacal trumps:  Emperior (Aries), Hierophant (Taurus), Lovers (Gemini), Chariot (Cancer), Strength (Leo), Hermit (Virgo), Justice (Libra), Death (Scorpio), Temperance (Sagittarius), Devil (Capricorn), Star (Aquarius), Moon (Pisces).

Elemental attributions of the Minor Arcana.
Wands--Fire
Cups--Water
Swords--Air
Pentacles--Earth

King--Fire
Queen--Water
Knight--Air
Page--Earth

Thus the King of Cups is Fire of Water,  the Queen of Swords of Water of Air, the Page of Pentacles is Earth of Earth, and so forth.
The numbered cards represent the Sephirot of the Tree of Life in each successive world of the Four Kabbalistic Worlds.  Precise application of this can be found in numerous publications.

Golden Dawn names of the Court Cards
In the above, I have used the "vulgate" ranks of the court cards and suit names.  In Golden Dawn usage, the card called King in vulgate decks is called Knight, and the card called Knight in the vulgate decks is called Prince;  and the card called Page in the vulgate decks is called Princess.  Also, suit named Pentacles is usually called Disks.

Note that to effectively use this method, a working knowledge of astrological houses and signs and of the Tree of Life in the Kabbalah is required, and the fuller one's knowledge of astrology to include the characters and influences of the planets and zodiacal signs, and the fuller one's knowledge of Kabbalah to include understanding of the Tree of Life and Sephiroth, the better.