Guidance for classical beginner

[thinksloth]

Hello, I start listen classical music in few months. I have some questions in my mind that want to make it clear.

After I had watched "Nodame Cantabile", I found that i am interested in classical music. So I try to listen it,

e.g. Beethoven piano concerto #5 1st mvt, Chopin piano concerto #1 1st mvt, Rachmaninov piano concerto #2 1st mvt
Dvorak symphony #9 4th mvt, Beethoven symphony #7 1st mvt, Shostakovich symphony #5 4th mvt, Brahms symphony #1 1st mvt
Tchaikovsky violin concerto 1st mvt, some mozart favorite piano sonata, etc

But how to 'step inside' to classical music? Or correct way to listen classical music?

Here's my plan / questions,
1. As a beginner, at first listen some 'easy' work, e.g. Bach Brandenburg Concerto, Piano Sonata, in order to train the ear know what instruments in the music
2. Don't listen symphony, piano concerto because it involves too many instruments
3. Does it need to know music theory? e.g. Bach: Brandenburg Concerto No. 2 in F major, actually I don't know F major in the music refer to
4. Or listen the music you like many times, no matter is a concerto, symphony, just listen it in order to get a feel on it.


Hope folks can give me any suggestions.

Please forgive my long sentence and poor english.

thanks~

[thinksloth]

something I forget to write...

In order to 'know' the piece, i had checked the what sonata is, and how sonata form appear in symphony from wikipedia.
But when i listen Beethoven violin sonata 'spring', can't get this sonata structure...

that;s why i think i need to listen the music repeatedly

[jochanaan]

There's no "correct" way to listen to classical music, nor any knowledge required before listening.  Just listen to what you like, but be ready to expand your "likes." I would only say that classical music, more than almost any other kind, requires focused, centered listening.  Don't try to listen while doing other things, at least not the first time you hear something.  Take time to sit down and "use your ears like a man." (Charles Ives)

As for the key, all that knowing the key tells you is that a piece begins and ends on certain chords/harmonies.  Brandenburg 1, for example, begins and ends in F major.  However, its second movement, while nominally in D minor, actually begins and ends on an A major chord!  But not being able to hear this doesn't need to detract from your enjoyment.  And if you decide to learn how to read music and to study music theory--more power to you!  But don't think you have to.

[eyeresist]

Hello, I start listen classical music in few months. I have some questions in my mind that want to make it clear.

After I had watched "Nodame Cantabile", I found that i am interested in classical music. So I try to listen it,

e.g. Beethoven piano concerto #5 1st mvt, Chopin piano concerto #1 1st mvt, Rachmaninov piano concerto #2 1st mvt
Dvorak symphony #9 4th mvt, Beethoven symphony #7 1st mvt, Shostakovich symphony #5 4th mvt, Brahms symphony #1 1st mvt
Tchaikovsky violin concerto 1st mvt, some mozart favorite piano sonata, etc

But how to 'step inside' to classical music? Or correct way to listen classical music?

Here's my plan / questions,
1. As a beginner, at first listen some 'easy' work, e.g. Bach Brandenburg Concerto, Piano Sonata, in order to train the ear know what instruments in the music
2. Don't listen symphony, piano concerto because it involves too many instruments
3. Does it need to know music theory? e.g. Bach: Brandenburg Concerto No. 2 in F major, actually I don't know F major in the music refer to
4. Or listen the music you like many times, no matter is a concerto, symphony, just listen it in order to get a feel on it.

Welcome, thinksloth.

1. I don't know if the Brandenburg concertos, or piano sonatas of Beethoven (for example), could be described as "easy".
2. "Too many instruments" should not be a problem, but rather the opposite: because the different musical lines are played by different instruments, it's easier to understand the melodic/harmonic structure.
3. We talked about the helpfulness of knowing some music theory a little while ago. Getting into music theory is a substantial leap for a complete novice. The very first step would be to become familiar with the notes, for which a keyboard with the notes names on the individual keys might be helpful. But really, I don't think it'll help your understanding of music greatly to know that a particular piece is (or isn't) in F major.
4. Yes, just getting accustomed to the feel of classical music will be useful. For long-time listeners, they still often have to do this when exploring unfamiliar composers. Beyond this, you can "practise" listening by trying to follow the melodic line of a piece of music from beginning to end (that's assuming the piece has a melody!).

Other than that, I would say (a little snootily) that the "correct" method of listening to classical music should involve listening to complete pieces rather than individual movements. But really, whatever makes you happy is fine.

[DavidW]

But how to 'step inside' to classical music? Or correct way to listen classical music?

Empty your mind and take it in. Also try listening to the same work several times.

Here's my plan / questions,
1. As a beginner, at first listen some 'easy' work, e.g. Bach Brandenburg Concerto, Piano Sonata, in order to train the ear know what instruments in the music

Sure sounds good.

2. Don't listen symphony, piano concerto because it involves too many instruments

They play together, it's not a problem.  Chamber music will be harder because they don't play together as much as each have their own part with complex counterpoint between them.

3. Does it need to know music theory? e.g. Bach: Brandenburg Concerto No. 2 in F major, actually I don't know F major in the music refer to

Nope.

4. Or listen the music you like many times, no matter is a concerto, symphony, just listen it in order to get a feel on it.

Yes!

[thinksloth]

First thanks all of the reply~


A few things that make me frustrated, and want to write in here...

1) Not like the whole masterpiece
Tchaikovsky violin concerto and Rachmaninov piano concerto #2, I had a great feeling in 1st mvt, but 2nd and 3rd not much feeling, then I question myself, is that something I missed so I am not enjoy the remaining movements? Am I so amateur that not enjoy the great masterpiece..?


2) Not understand the music structure
Beethoven last 3 piano sonata, that Beethoven bring something new (e.g. fugue)(correct me if I am wrong). Since I don't get what fugue is, don't know how great the masterpiece is. That's the reason why I ask music theory is a must or not.


3) Cannot get the composer / the music meaning
Some masterpiece had some meaning to the creator (composer). But honestly I don't feel it when listening.



The reasons I listen classical music:
- music is great, comfortable when listening
- when i need to relax, i will hear some excitment music (e.g. Mozart Alla Turca)
- when i need some power, i will hear dvorak symphony 9 4th mvt

Those are my feeling and thoughts, again forgive my poor english.

Thanks~

[mc ukrneal]

First thanks all of the reply~


A few things that make me frustrated, and want to write in here...

1) Not like the whole masterpiece
Tchaikovsky violin concerto and Rachmaninov piano concerto #2, I had a great feeling in 1st mvt, but 2nd and 3rd not much feeling, then I question myself, is that something I missed so I am not enjoy the remaining movements? Am I so amateur that not enjoy the great masterpiece..?


2) Not understand the music structure
Beethoven last 3 piano sonata, that Beethoven bring something new (e.g. fugue)(correct me if I am wrong). Since I don't get what fugue is, don't know how great the masterpiece is. That's the reason why I ask music theory is a must or not.


3) Cannot get the composer / the music meaning
Some masterpiece had some meaning to the creator (composer). But honestly I don't feel it when listening.



The reasons I listen classical music:
- music is great, comfortable when listening
- when i need to relax, i will hear some excitment music (e.g. Mozart Alla Turca)
- when i need some power, i will hear dvorak symphony 9 4th mvt

Those are my feeling and thoughts, again forgive my poor english.

Thanks~

Like anything new, it will just take some time to get accustomed to what you are hearing.

1) Not liking an entire piece is not a problem in my eyes. At the beginning, just listen to what moves or excites you (or interests you). Some people will listen to just parts of movements. This is normal. Over time, you will figure out why you were having trouble with those other parts. Or maybe you will discover that the composer is not really to your liking (though that does not mean you won't enjoy some of what they wrote).  Some alternatives though, would be to listen to pieces that naturally have breaks anyway. Some examples would be Dvorak's Slavonic Dances or the Brahms Hungarian Dances. Each track is a separate dance (you could skip the ones you like less or change the order if that suits you). You could also listen to samplers just for exposure to the genre. Some ballets may work well in this way (they are episodic in nature anyway, and there are numerous ballet highlights type discs). And if you don't like a track, I would just skip it for now, knowing you can always go back. I also think going to a concert can be useful (and fun).

2) Beethoven's late sonatas are difficult by any measure. It took a long time (decades) before the majority of listeners began to understand what it was that Beethoven had done. They are very much layered pieces, with many nuances. That said, even the beginner can enjoy them, though you may want to start with an earlier sonata first. Withougt knowing the history of the form and such, it will be difficult for you to understand how Beethoven (or any other composer) was revolutionary or different. This will come in time with experience. Beethoven was not the first to use a fugue and I don't think that knowing or not knowing theory will necessarily help you at this stage. Of course, it won't hurt, but if the concepts are new, you may be frustrated if you don't immediately see what it is being dicussed. There is no one way to approach this, so I would do whatever you want/feel comfortable doing.

3) I often daydream while I listen. I don't worry about understanding this. It can be useful, but it is not something I would worry too much about at this point. Sometimes the booklets that accompany the discs will provide some useful information about this if there is an interest.

I know that when I have a disc from a group I like (in pop, rock, jazz, etc.), I will often jump around or skip tracks. I think you need the same approach in classical. I still do it today - sometimes I am just not ready for a certain piece (or portion) or not in the right frame of mind.

What this forum can be great for - once you have found something you like, we can help you with suggestions on some similar pieces. And with the help of youtube and other similar tools, you will be able to sample it to see if you might like it.

You have a great adventure ahead of you!

[eyeresist]

1) Not like the whole masterpiece
Tchaikovsky violin concerto and Rachmaninov piano concerto #2, I had a great feeling in 1st mvt, but 2nd and 3rd not much feeling, then I question myself, is that something I missed so I am not enjoy the remaining movements? Am I so amateur that not enjoy the great masterpiece..?

Maybe if you listen to the later movements separately, you will come to appreciate them more? There is also the problem that some performances are better than others - a different recording may convince you to change your mind.

2) Not understand the music structure
Beethoven last 3 piano sonata, that Beethoven bring something new (e.g. fugue)(correct me if I am wrong). Since I don't get what fugue is, don't know how great the masterpiece is. That's the reason why I ask music theory is a must or not.

You have years to listen to Beethoven's late sonatas. For now, be happy with the earlier ones, especially the ones with names (Moonlight, Pathetique, Appassionata, etc). They are great too!

3) Cannot get the composer / the music meaning
Some masterpiece had some meaning to the creator (composer). But honestly I don't feel it when listening.

Everyone likes some things and dislikes others. You will find people here who hate Beethoven and Mozart. This is okay. But you should give the important composers a fair trial, and remember that your tastes may change with time.

The reasons I listen classical music:
- music is great, comfortable when listening
- when i need to relax, i will hear some excitment music (e.g. Mozart Alla Turca)
- when i need some power, i will hear dvorak symphony 9 4th mvt

Those are my feeling and thoughts, again forgive my poor english.

Pleasure is the reason we listen to music. Not everyone is so honest.

Your English is okay. At least writing in a different language makes you think before you post, which some of us forget to do 

[DavidW]

1) Not like the whole masterpiece
Tchaikovsky violin concerto and Rachmaninov piano concerto #2, I had a great feeling in 1st mvt, but 2nd and 3rd not much feeling, then I question myself, is that something I missed so I am not enjoy the remaining movements? Am I so amateur that not enjoy the great masterpiece..?

Ah you see both of those have amazing melodies in the first movement, and you are responding to that.  Understandable, but you do have a problem.  You're listening mostly for melody so you are missing out on alot of what is going on in the music.  I advise you to keep listening, by sheer repetition you will start to get the music and you will find what you were missing in the other movements.

2) Not understand the music structure
Beethoven last 3 piano sonata, that Beethoven bring something new (e.g. fugue)(correct me if I am wrong). Since I don't get what fugue is, don't know how great the masterpiece is. That's the reason why I ask music theory is a must or not.

A little music appreciation course wouldn't hurt, but mainly you just need to listen.  I think that repeated, attentive listening will reveal the basic forms even if you can't name them.  It would go faster if someone could point out a theme and how it's transformed etc...

3) Cannot get the composer / the music meaning
Some masterpiece had some meaning to the creator (composer). But honestly I don't feel it when listening.

Much of classical music is abstract, it doesn't necessarily have meaning except for what you bring to it.  No worries.

[Grazioso]

1. As a beginner, at first listen some 'easy' work, e.g. Bach Brandenburg Concerto, Piano Sonata, in order to train the ear know what instruments in the music

"Easy" is a relative thing. There's a lot going on in the Brandenburg Concertos. To get a feel for the sound of classical music's instruments, try listening to The Young Person's Guide to the Orchestra by Benjamin Britten.

2. Don't listen symphony, piano concerto because it involves too many instruments

The number of instruments doesn't make a piece more or less complex. During part of a symphony, for example, dozens of instruments might play the same theme together. A Baroque piece will often have multiple melodies playing at once over a bass line, which might be a lot for the ear to take in and the mind to follow.

3. Does it need to know music theory? e.g. Bach: Brandenburg Concerto No. 2 in F major, actually I don't know F major in the music refer to

No, but some theory and history is very useful. For example, part of classical music structure involves modulating (changing) to different keys. It helps if you have a basic idea of what a key is and can hear it change, even if you don't know any of the details.

4. Or listen the music you like many times, no matter is a concerto, symphony, just listen it in order to get a feel on it.

Definitely listen a lot and concentrate on what you're hearing. In classical music, there's often so much going on that it takes many listens and careful study to notice and understand the details.

[Josquin des Prez]

Here's my plan / questions,
1. As a beginner, at first listen some 'easy' work, e.g. Bach Brandenburg Concerto, Piano Sonata, in order to train the ear know what instruments in the music

Bach's Brandenburg Concertos are anything but easy. Very little by Bach is. In fact, i'd say the majority of great composers are all relatively difficult in one way or another. I think its more important that you actively listen to music without worrying about what to listen first or what not. One way or another the key thing is to train your ears to new sounds and concepts. Knowledge will come in time.

2. Don't listen symphony, piano concerto because it involves too many instruments

But in a symphony, instruments can simply work to add color or create a particular texture, without necessarily being independent entities in and of themselves. The difficult part in a lot of classical compositions is the ability to maintain a "birds-eye" view of all the various voices that constitute a given composition, which aren't necessarily related to the number of instruments. A keyboard composition by Bach can be far denser, musically, then a large romantic symphony, even if it involves a single instrument.

3. Does it need to know music theory? e.g. Bach: Brandenburg Concerto No. 2 in F major, actually I don't know F major in the music refer to

Studying music theory isn't necessary, but it does help to know several key concepts. The problem is defining what "knowing" actual means in the context of listening to music because reading about counterpoint in a theory book isn't the same thing as knowing what counterpoint is in practice, when you are actually listening to music. So while it can be of help to get a brush view of what counterpoint is on paper, the key element is learning what  counterpoint is by actually listening to it. There are concepts in classical music which do indeed need to be studied, but they need to be studied with your ears. Reading about those concepts in a book can guide your listening experience and help you understand those ideas, but isn't an object in and of itself. A lot of CDs usually come with a booklet containing a short analysis of a given piece and most of the times you can get by with that, since the knowledge you need to acquire is all in the music. Other times you can extrapolate the information you need on your own. For instance, you may not know what F major or c minor means, but if you listen to enough pieces you'll notice that a lot of those that are labeled as major tend to have a sunnier, happier feeling to it, while those in minor keys are usually of the "sad" category. So already you know what to expect by a piece just by looking at whether it is written in a major or minor key, without even know what a key is in the first place. I'd say that for the most part you can just turn to wikipedia and get all the information you need, since all the real learning will be done in practice, not in theory.

4. Or listen the music you like many times, no matter is a concerto, symphony, just listen it in order to get a feel on it.

This, i think, is probably the best approach after all is said and done. Everything else will come in time.

[thinksloth]

thank you all guys, the suggestions are very useful and reduce my frustration.

I will keep listening classical music and sharing my thoughts ^_^

[thinksloth]

"Easy" is a relative thing. There's a lot going on in the Brandenburg Concertos. To get a feel for the sound of classical music's instruments, try listening to The Young Person's Guide to the Orchestra by Benjamin Britten.

and how about "Simple Symphony" by Benjamin Britten, as it names apply...

[jochanaan]

and how about "Simple Symphony" by Benjamin Britten, as it names apply...

That is a fun piece, and it'll help you begin to understand musical form, as the Young Person's Guide helps you to recognize instrumental sounds.

[Roberto]

Here's my plan / questions,
1. As a beginner, at first listen some 'easy' work, e.g. Bach Brandenburg Concerto, Piano Sonata, in order to train the ear know what instruments in the music
2. Don't listen symphony, piano concerto because it involves too many instruments
3. Does it need to know music theory? e.g. Bach: Brandenburg Concerto No. 2 in F major, actually I don't know F major in the music refer to
4. Or listen the music you like many times, no matter is a concerto, symphony, just listen it in order to get a feel on it.

When I started listening to classical music I have started with Beethoven symphonies (with Ferencsik/Hungarian PO). I think Beethoven symphonies are good place to start.

Short answer:
Correct way to listen? It was written that you have to sit and listen to music only. I totally agree. The purpose of this music is not for background noise.
I don't think Brandenburg Concertos are easy but indeed these are popular. It is good to begin with popular classical pieces. For me it worked.
Don't bother with number of instruments. Try listen to symphonic and chamber music also. These are different but enlarge your knowledge. 
Doesn't need to know theory but if you will like classical music you maybe will interested in theory or something. I even can't read score. But personally I like to read about composers' life. But it is not absolutely necessary I think.

Not so short answer: 
I don't know how people enjoy classical music. It is maybe a mysterious thing about the human brain. And there are so many parts of classical music that we can't find a common thing. But it is a wrong way to imagine something else like fields with sunlight or romantic situations while you listen to classical music (even if some piece has a specific "program"). (Opera is a different thing because it combines visuality with music but I personally like to listen opera CDs not DVDs.) Listen to the melodies, the rhythm, orchestration (how the composer uses the instruments), the variations (when the composer changes the melody) and so on. Listen to the musical "story" and to the feelings what music brings to you. It is hard to describe it. An example: at the end of the Beethoven's Egmont overture there is a small motif played by the violins first. The motif after it goes to the violas and after it goes to the cellos. At the end the motif played by basses who changes it a little and gives back this changed motif to the cellos and so on. On a stereo recording the motif also goes left (where violins are) to right (where basses are) and back (it was Ferenc Fricsay's recording). When I fist noticed it was fantastic experience. But I could tell experiences like this endlessly. For me these experiences and discoveries are wonderful. And every musical "story" and event like this transformed a deep emotion inside me.

But for this you need a comfortable place. I listen to classical music as background music also sometimes but these are just for fun or just to get to know a new piece or something. The main thing for me is not the background music thing.

When I started listening to classical music years ago I listened only movements not whole pieces too. But now I listen whole pieces mainly. Because I think the whole piece gives a complete experience. The musical "story" starts somewhere and ends somewhere. At the beginning slow movements was too slow and too boring for me. But after I realized how many thing happened in these and now I like these also (sometimes more than outer fast movements). These are a important parts of the pieces. Now these are not boring.

Some music needs more listening to understand it. I sometimes listened new pieces as background while I am working or something. It gives me a general picture about it. When I listen it mainly it will be familiar. When I listened to Bartók's Concerto first (years ago) it was boring and strange. And after a while I listened it again. And when I listened it over again it was wonderful. Full of musical "events". I questioned myself: What was boring in it? It is wonderful and full of nuances.

Things about music. In a nutshell. 

Modified: I forgot something. This is my way. Maybe your way to music is different. I think the best is that everybody find his own way. I can help only in that I show mine.

[bigshot]

My guide to appreciating classical music.

Sit down and listen. Focus. Don't multi task. Don't allow interruptions.

Read the liner notes. Google info on the work and the life of the composer so you know the context of the work.

Pay attention to performers. Figure out which ones you like and why.

Don't bite off more than you can chew. Keep your focus limited. There's always time to branch out later. Skipping around centuries might confuse you more than it enlightens.

It doesn't matter where you start- old or new, symphonic or chamber, instrumental or vocal. Just pick a spot and dive in.

Listen to the works several times and think about them.

Don't worry excessively about your equipment or the recording quality. Focus on the music.

If you aren't having fun, you're doing it wrong.

[DavidRoss]

Try attending performances:

http://www.hkpo.com/eng/home/index.jsp

http://chambermusic.homestead.com/

http://www.ccohk.com/

[Palmetto]

Don't repeat my recent mistake of getting so wrapped up in analysis and theory that you lose the music.

If you listen to any of the 'GMG Listening Group' selections, don't get bogged down in the technical aspects of the discussions.  (Frankly, I don't think they belong in the 'Beginners' section of the forum; at least, not at the level of analysis that goes on.  Just one newbie's opinion.)

Don't hesitate to ask questions; the members here are incredibly patient!

[RebLem]

First of all, I reommend you listen to complete works, not just a movenemtn of one work here, another movement of another work there.  To learn something about structure and form, I recommend you listen to some relatively easy, but nevertheless wonderful works, first, and work out from there.  Haydn symphonies are a good way to start; forms are pretty obvious in them.  Also, form seems, for some reason, to be clearer and simpler in violin concerti than in other works.  Perhaps your first approach to Beethoven should be through his violin concerto.  Bach's Brandenburg's are excellent, and another work that will help you understand themes and variations is his Goldberg Variations.

Your English could use some improvement, but please understand that your meaning seems to be always clear, which is more than I can say for some native speakers and writers of English.  You should not feel too self conscious about it, as we native speakers usually find halting, stumbling attempts to communicate rather charming and endearing, as long as we can understand you.  And we do understand you.

[Roberto]

First of all, I reommend you listen to complete works, not just a movenemtn of one work here, another movement of another work there.  To learn something about structure and form,
I think at first it is not a wrong practice to listen individual movements instead of complete works. When I started to explore classical music I did so. And after a while I realized that I have to listen whole works. But there are works that you shouldn't listen at once. Like Bach's Art of fugue; Bartók's Mikrokozmosz or 44 duos or other "collection" works. At longer works like operas I usually listen one or two acts at morning and 1 or 2 acts in the afternoon.