Lorraine Hunt-Lieberson and vocal techniques

[zamyrabyrd]

Lieberson in the Ruckert Lieder is so extraordinary, so am adding it here to the collection:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_BaIHPXPm4&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVNB2nxtOCA&NR=1

While listening, I was thinking of the concept of "word-coloring" and couldn't help but conclude that the music first and foremost does that to the words. So in order to color the words better, one must penetrate further into the music! The reverse approach I believe is wrong. One gets artificial or superimposed "coloring".

Magda Olivero said (if I got it right) that the notes are not notes but states of the soul. Taking that as a premise, one can conclude in the humble 12 tone chromatic scale that nuances are practically infinite.

ZB

[knight66]

Oh well Harry here is one singer at least about whom we fundamentally disagree. If Baker was indeed overrated, then it was much more widely than in the UK, which is just a plain old dig.

As to Ludwig; oddly enough I get a lot less variation of colour from her than from quite a number of other singers. It strikes me as a superb instrument, but I don't get hear much emotion at all or variation of colour. No single phrase comes to my mind in her voice; whereas with Liberson, Baker, Callas and a number of others, the way they project certain phrases is imprinted. Now I suppose there is a space between excellent singing and providing 'face'; but as ZB in particular put such weight onto words and how they are used; we will remain at odds as to who provides most satisfaction on that scorecard.

But then probably just as well; if we all gravitated towards a tight handful of singers, there would be very few to listen to.

Mike

[Harry Powell]

Hi Mike

I could set a number of examples for Ludwig's command of nuances, but I have recently discussed two infrequent performances by her: firstly, her charming execution of Eboli's melismata in the "Song of the Veil", including diminuendi. Then I advise you to listen to a rendition of "Es gibt ein Reich", from "Ariadme auf Naxos". Pay attention to the way she colors a simple "a" on the word "Ariadne", according to the changing harmonic function of the notes.

Now I'm sorry to say this, but in terms of phrasing I cannot name Callas in the same breath as Baker and Lieberson.

Harry

[zamyrabyrd]

Pay attention to the way she colors a simple "a" on the word "Ariadne", according to the changing harmonic function of the notes.

Yes, indeed, a singer should be alive to harmony, if not intellectually but intuitively. It didn't hurt that Callas was a good pianist and Lieberson a violist.

Since the discussion is more on this thread than the other, maybe someone can come forward and solve the diction puzzle. In what language is this supposed to be?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8vHk038_VY

A commenter below thought that "Who is Sylvia" is being sung in German. I just add this because I have been accused of being a minority of one before until I find out that there are plenty of those with a similar opinion, only we 1) haven't gotten together yet and 2) the pervasive popular opinion may be due to people repeating what everyone else has said and building upon that. Personally, I think the above clip is awful.

ZB

[Harry Powell]

Other comment: "Who ih Nylia?" 
Her nasal tone is very conspicuos here.

Harry.

[zamyrabyrd]

In the past I waited for the lynch mob of Americans to swoop down on me anytime I said something remotely negative about Beverly Sills. There seems now to be a true believers club for Vessilina Kasarova who will defend her with tooth and nail.

Not to feel completely lonely, I did find some corroboration on the net from a person who didn't like Sutherland for the same reasons, not putting the words first. Fair use should permit a quote or two:

http://ablog.typepad.com/a_blog/baker_janet/
Language, uniquely, consists of universals. If the oboe or the violin in a piece of music does not play properly this does not affect thought, or universals. If the word's are not comprehensible this destroys thought - a unique element. It reduces the vocal line to another instrument - and that is not the function of words. These are fundamental reasons for not appreciating Sutherland and Baker's singing.

But that is not exactly my take on it. I feel that the music should serve the words, not vice versa, which to me is the cause of the malaise. In fact, it wouldn't matter if the words were pronounced 100% correctly, if they are an afterthought of the music. That is my opinion.

ZB

[Harry Powell]

Well, this is a broader issue. My point is you can't say that in most of Sutherland's roles music should serve the words. As the Godfather of Italian melodrama, Rossini was very definite about this: quite the opposite. "If a composer follows step by step the sense of words, he will create non-expressive music: poor, unconnected, vulgar, ridiculous." For Rossini, words were mere imitation of feeling while music was pure feeling. In coloratura parts the very writing tells us that words are second to music.

Of course, as words achieved greater prominence through Donizetti, Bellini and Verdi, Sutherland was less at home in their operas. Still, I feel her diction wasn't that bad. Leontyne Price's was much worse and she sang roles where words were much more important.

In Lieder it's obvious you must take greater care of diction.

Kasarova would be fortunate if her problems were limited to diction. Bad diction in her comes from a false technique. An unbearable singer.

[zamyrabyrd]

Well, this is a broader issue. My point is you can't say that in most of Sutherland's roles music should serve the words. As the Godfather of Italian melodrama, Rossini was very definite about this: quite the opposite. "If a composer follows step by step the sense of words, he will create non-expressive music: poor, unconnected, vulgar, ridiculous." For Rossini, words were mere imitation of feeling while music was pure feeling. In coloratura parts the very writing tells us that words are second to music.

Of course, as words achieved greater prominence through Donizetti, Bellini and Verdi, Sutherland was less at home in their operas. Still, I feel her diction wasn't that bad. Leontyne Price's was much worse and she sang roles where words were much more important.

In Lieder it's obvious you must take greater care of diction.

Kasarova would be fortunate if her problems were limited to diction. Bad diction in her comes from a false technique. An unbearable singer.

I personally like Sutherland very much. I don't think she was indifferent to what she was singing, only when the articulation of words interfere with the placement or flow, the sound must be preserved and not a pedantic pronunciation. Singing text and saying it are two different techniques anyway. After a certain pitch in all voices the vowels converge, meaning the so-called integrity of the vowel cannot be kept.

There are so many seeming paradoxes here but they can be sorted out. Coloratura when sung by Callas or Olivero was no technical exercise.  The Mad Scene in Lucia immediately comes to mind with Callas or Hamlet, in contrast to the first act of Traviata - she sang them all as an extension to the expression.

As for Rossini, reading a laundry list onstage would not have exactly been a preference for him.  Opera has to be acted. Anyway, composers frequently wrote the music first, like Verdi, but this doesn't mean that when performed this should be the order of preference.

ZB

[Tsaraslondon]

Maybe this discussion should be on the Baker thread. We all at least seem to be in agreement about Hunt Lieberson's qualities.

On the Mahler issue, I side with Mike. I have the Ludwig/Karajan versions of Kindertotenlieder and the Ruckert Lieder, as well as Baker's versions. Ludwig has her rich, glorious voice of course, and is certainly not insensitive to the text, but nowhere do I find the sort of verbal acuity one finds in Baker's versions with Barbirolli. Indeed her version of ich bin der Welt abhanden kommen is one of the most moving pieces of singing I have ever heard. It never fails to bring a lump to the throat, an experience which has never been duplicated for me when listening to Ludwig's version.

And incidentally, I have found Baker to be held in high regard all over the world, not least in the US. I've even heard the French praise her for her singing of Berlioz and other French music.

[knight66]

In a way, these arguments; in terms of explanatory dialogue rather than aggressive disagreement, have taken some strange turns. Words are only sometimes vital, depending on the composer or the genre. Well produced sound is critical, but we berate only specific modern singers for the lack of use of a technique that seems to have all but died out.

We find colour in some singers and not in others.....with little consensus: excepting Hunt Lieberson.

We like singers who directly speak to us; yet how often did Sutherland ever manage that? Yet I think all of us admire her.

One of the many singers we have not mentioned is Kathleen Ferrier. Now there was someone with a rather limited technique and a limited vocal range: yet for me she compensates for both with the luminous sound she produced and the direct way she communicated.

There are possibly some parallels between Hunt Lieberson and Ferrier; but in a sense they are spurious.

Janowitz, I love and have almost everything she has recorded, but hear obvious shortcomings. Auger seems to me a near perfect singer in every way, but I have heard her fudge in Strauss. Leontine Price has been mentioned, and I agree with the remarks, but nevertheless place her near the top if the tree.

We have our pet likes and dislikes and as I read somewhere this week; offensive to some here or not: criticism is often no more than elevated expressions of taste.

Mike

[zamyrabyrd]

It's really difficult to describe music in words, less still to explain the what and how it speaks to the listener. But teachers are forced to do this all the time - not that it doesn't make it all the more frustrating because an exact elucidation somehow slips further and further away - no, it's not that either.

However, what stands out for me in Lieberson's production, more than in many other singers, is the open quality of the tone. It's free but not out of control, a quality of immediacy, with suggestion of improvisation, perhaps what was also endearing in Ferrier. This is messa di voce whether one is aware of the formal technique or not, and surely as long as it continues to be in use, it is not outdated. 

I also want to add that I never cared about any prevailing temporary consensus about singers like Domingo, Sills, Dessay, etc., or musicians like Bernstein, Rubinstein, etc.  In time though the gilt eventually wears off and odious comparisons are made, already happening with Dessay.

ZB

[knight66]

I am with you in terms of not liking Sills, Domingo or Dessay; the latter of whom I enjoy when I can see her, but whose CDs I have long since stopped buying. Domingo I admire in many ways, but can't connect with him or his work. Turning to Sills, one of the most knowledgeable writers on vocalists and vocal music we have ever had here is Nigel Wilkinson. He still writes a terrific review blog. He pretty much adores Sills and her work and her voice. It is a total mystery to me; but I have a lot of respect for his judgements, despite another of his enthusiasms being Dame Gwyneth Jones most of whose music making gives me the shudders.

I suppose I am still making the same point; which possibly can most firmly be made through Callas.....like Marmite you love her or hate her and very knowledgeable people stand on each side of that opinion scale.

Having said that I am not suggesting that all singers are thereby equal and equally capable; and that it is mere opinion that divides them. Over on the Wagner thread Harry makes remarks about a singer and it is not simply that I agree with him; that singer cannot cope with the music he is being paid to perform. At least, he is not singing it using the techniques  the composer clearly intended.

But wrap it up how I like; basically we have two opposing and irreconcilable schools of opinion here on Baker.

Now this messa di voce  that almost no one uses: my reading still does not get me to understand exactly what I am listening out for......though I kind of expect that when I do 'hear' it, I will go....oh that. Can you give me any Lieberson Youtube experts where you can specify the minute/seconds when she deploys it? I have most of her later recordings and can go through them to find more examples.......what live singer use it?

Mike

[zamyrabyrd]

Now this messa di voce  that almost no one uses: my reading still does not get me to understand exactly what I am listening out for......though I kind of expect that when I do 'hear' it, I will go....oh that. Can you give me any Lieberson Youtube experts where you can specify the minute/seconds when she deploys it? I have most of her later recordings and can go through them to find more examples.......what live singer uses it?  Mike

Any technique if it is good and used correctly will not call attention to itself. There are plenty of judiciously used swells here in Ich atmet' einen linden Duft, the 1st Ruckert song (less in the 2nd, more in the 3rd): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_BaIHPXPm4&feature=related

The swells can be soft to loud, loud to soft, or diamond shaped with varying degrees of proportion and intensity. It could be an immediate pulling off of the tone right after a consonant, to make the words more audible. It is not certain if these messe di voce are deployed consciously or intuitively by her or anyone else, but they are very effective. Of course, they have to fit in with the exigencies of the phrase and harmony.

This might not be a exact analogy but piano playing becomes much more interesting and varied when pedalling is recognized as an art in itself and not just plunking the right pedal down at the beginning of a measure or harmony. Similarly, messa di voce is the art of applied acoustics to singing.

ZB

[knight66]

Well, that is most beautiful, it is different from the famous Baker version:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZ3JROJHloE

which I find just as beautiful. HL has a tendency to slide between notes and not move cleanly between them: not a technical deficiency, but clearly an interpretative decision to in part create an undisturbed atmosphere. But contra to that with her distinctive phrasing I think she also breaks the line more often. I can't be hacked digging out my score to see where the phrasing lies; but my reading of this piece is to provide a thread of sound across the arc of the song as unbroken as possible. It is an oasis of calm, a balm.

I breathed a gentle fragrance!
In the room stood
a sprig of linden,
a gift
from a dear hand.
How lovely was the fragrance of linden!

How lovely is the fragrance of linden!
That twig of linden
you broke off so gently!
Softly I breathe in
  the fragrance of linden,
the gentle fragrance of love.

In fact I have the performance you point to from its earlier incarnation as a BBC disc. In that song I do prefer Baker, but HL's music making is potent and not to be missed. My opinion is that we are comparing between the very best that is available and as so often I feel we ought to avoid denigrating one singer/composer/ pianist in order to raise the favoured one up. There is a tendency to this across areas of this site, especially amongst the young men where every opinion becomes about 'the best' and alienating performances by others. There is more than one way to great interpretation of any masterpiece. It is not a competition.

But comparisons are certainly illuminating.

I feel I detect Baker using the messa di voce in her version: which by virtue of being accompanied by orchestra perhaps allows less leaway for its effective use. But the real point is that I think she does use this technique and although it is an advanced technique; this swelling and diminuendo without change of tone or colour is one that I understand most singers are taught. As I expected, once my misunderstanding was cleared up, the technique is one I know about.

Vaughn Williams in his songs of travel marks such requirements into his score, even on single crotchet notes. Almost the only singer I have heard able to utilise them was Bryn Terfel....in his pre Wagner days. I could not manage it over some of the short spans asked for in parts of the score.

Long after that early Baker recording she modified her technique. She went to a voice lab and had herself tested for legato. It showed her that she was breaking the sound more than she thought was appropriate, more than she realised. She then moved to concentrate on the legato phrasing and to my ears became less expressive with the words themselves because of it. An example would be to compare her earliest Purcell Dido with her much later one. The earlier one remained the touchstone for sheer communication and connection with the audience, though the latter may be of higher quality in terms of vocal control.

As a singer gets older, there is always the balance between technique and communication and whereas some things get easier with experience, as time moves on, other things become harder.

Mike

[zamyrabyrd]

Well, that is most beautiful, it is different from the famous Baker version:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZ3JROJHloE

which I find just as beautiful. HL has a tendency to slide between notes and not move cleanly between them: not a technical deficiency, but clearly an interpretative decision to in part create an undisturbed atmosphere. But contra to that with her distinctive phrasing I think she also breaks the line more often. I can't be hacked digging out my score to see where the phrasing lies; but my reading of this piece is to provide a thread of sound across the arc of the song as unbroken as possible. It is an oasis of calm, a balm.
Mike

Thank you for your patience, Mike.
I am sorry, though, the above recording doesn't do a thing for me.
By way of explanation, I'd like to cite a few technical points.
WHY, does she give an audible "t" at the end of long notes? This is pedantic and even a bit strange. On a long soft note at the end of a phrase, even in German, attention doesn't need to be directed to the last consonant. A more subtle "t" would be in order, not sticking out.
As for swells (as on "stand" and "hand"), they don't make sense if the preceding phrases have straight tones, that is, if they themselves are unaltered dynamically.
Perhaps the reason that messa di voce was instituted in the first place, is a straight tone (that I try to get in the studio anyway as a starting point) doesn't convey a sense of direction.  In this song, the atmosphere should be zen-like but tones that just sit, in effect, become stagnant.
Over all, the dynamic palette of HL was much more varied and colorful, especially when she drops to a pianissimo, and the periodic beats of the voice are not audible as in the above clip.

ZB

[zamyrabyrd]

I was just want to add a PS to the previous post. I was looking for the name of HL's voice teacher at the Boston Conservatory but couldn't find it. But without that information, it can be surmised that her being proficient in another instrument, the viola, surely had a positive impact on her singing. She was an excellent musician to begin with, was even part of a modern music chamber group.

To get back to the "Ich Atmet", there are still formal considerations even if the music is supposed to be as calm as possible. I feel that HL really clenched it as her smaller arched phrases fit in with the overall line with the two verses neatly wrapped up as it were.  Otherwise, without form, it just becomes a stream of consciousness recital of single lines.

ZB

[knight66]

Different voices have different characteristics and the beat in a voice can be intrusive and on other topics we have discussed the difference between a beat and a vibrato and an inherent vibrancy. We would all agree that a held note ought not to static in volume unless there is some special instruction and ought always to be getting louder or softer.

I see no problem in the swelling that JB utilises on specific words, just as I see no problem in the eliding in HL's interpretations. I don't think that JB's swelling the sound on those words disturbs the line or as you so well put it the zen-like atmosphere. Each singer has made distinct decisions over how to achieve a realisation of the piece. JB seems not to work for you.

All the tuition I had over 15 years from individual singing teachers was to place the end of the word and the thing you draw attention to is exactly what Baker reduced when she homed in on legato as indeed it can be perfectly argued that the plosives break the line. But I prefer that to the danger of vocalise. Probably a matter of the scale.

Here is Margaret Price. She has a varied approach to the word endings and I chose her as, although not being a native German speaker, she was said by German critics to have virtually perfect German.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1nfjwvJ0VI

This soprano key comes as a bit of a shock and she sounds a bit uncomfortable at the top. I detect no messa di voce, especially in diminuendo. It strikes me as being a very 'straight' reading without the detail of either of the others we have been discussing.

Here is Christa Ludwig Here the vibrancy/beat is quite evident and she does swell 'hand'. No real use of mezza di voce. Both at the beginning and at the end I feel she overdoes the scale of the crescendos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEbUvK3Jnws

Just as well this is a short piece, I really could not be hacked trying this with Lucia's Mad Scene! I watched Jessye Norman who takes the Margaret Price route and Katerena Karneus, who is a singer I like a lot, but is another who plays it very straight. What HL does with the song is basically a one off.

Mike

[knight66]

I was just want to add a PS to the previous post. I was looking for the name of HL's voice teacher at the Boston Conservatory but couldn't find it. But without that information, it can be surmised that her being proficient in another instrument, the viola, surely had a positive impact on her singing. She was an excellent musician to begin with, was even part of a modern music chamber group.

ZB

Yes, I think some of the most sheerly musical singers have come via an instrument and it is bound to influence the way they sing and probably the way they relate to the orchestra sounds, bowing, breathing etc depending on their instrument. But many great singers had no 'other' instrument unless it was the piano....a percussion instrument.

Mike

[zamyrabyrd]

Here's another to add to the collection, the inimitable Kathleen Ferrier:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2dPxZsnLTM&feature=related

I like the way she makes a diminuendo on the "Hand" instead of a crescendo that Margaret Price does and HL doesn't. It is more musically intelligent to resist letting out on the high note which here is actually part of a dissonant chord.  Of course, Ferrier had Walter as a mentor and his orchestral colorings are subtle and beautiful. I'm surprised with Ludwig. I never associated her voice with an audible vibrato. I like her very much in Lied von der Erde, but the vibrations at times are too distracting here. 

Yikes, Mike, piano-percussion-Callas, would you concur with that progression? Maybe some ppl bang on the piano, but I bet Callas didn't...

ZB

[knight66]

Oh, I was not thinking of Callas or anyone in particular. But I believe that string and woodwind players have a bit of specific insight on the voice in different ways. Baker also has piano as her other instrument and I should think that those who are less than proficient on it may be handicapped; as going through the score with the piano is one standard way of learning.

I was surprised at Ludwig. But even Janowitz who can be described as having a tubular pure sound applies vibrato to warm the sound. Also, we have Ludwig with a microphone sounding about an inch from her mouth which may exaggerate the characteristics.

The Ferrier is beautiful; though her limit is shown by having to break the line in that initial jump up to the high note which she has to 'place', but still beautiful. The approach to that last high note hardens in tone in order to retain control.

Now here is a recording of hers where on this old hissy recording her voice sounds three dimensional and as though she is standing beside you. The first time I heard it I was really startled by the reality. On the remastering I have the hiss is hardly present.

Tell me what you think.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHZhkvu1ojk

Mike