UK Riots?

[zamyrabyrd]

If you don't mind, I'm gonna hijack this thread because my neighborhood is affected. My corner grocery had its doors smashed and got looted, and the road that I walk down to get to Brick Lane and the bagel shop was host to a group of 40 guys throwing rocks at a police line. I'm totally fine, holed up on my quiet university campus with a fridge of food and beer, but at this point it's very much a fingers-crossed hope that I'll be able to get to the two Proms I have tickets for later this week. There may even be a curfew preventing it.

If you don't mind my asking, were those 40 or so guys local folk or from outside the area? In other words, are these pieces of work known to the neighborhood?

ZB

[Lethevich]

Now to the riot, it's my understanding that the police shot and killed someone and then initial riots broke out.  The extent of the riots indicates that something much more serious is at play.  Is it bottled up anger amongst poorer people and/or minorities, or what is it?  I confess, I don't follow the internal politics and economics of, um, Britain (?), so perhaps someone can shed some light.

A fair portion of them are just scum - the same essentially prideless and disrespectful people who you would feel intimidated by in the street. I would be surprised if many of them live in poverty - it actually takes considerable effort to be truly impoverished in this country nowadays, the poor tend to simply manage their finances very badly. The people taking part are largely spoiled and entitled kids who want free stuff.

How the whole thing flared up is one of the more bizarre occurances in recent history. I initially thought it was over Ian Tomlinson, and a part of me thought "right on!". Then this part of me became crushed and incredulous when I read that it was from a drug dealer dying in a police shootout. This is the extent of the wilfull stupidity we are dealing with:

Yet, a friend of Duggan who gave her name as Niki, 53, said marchers had wanted "justice for the family" and "something had to be done". She said some of them lay in the road to make their point. "They're making their presence known because people are not happy. This guy was not violent. Yes, he was involved in things but he was not an aggressive person. He had never hurt anyone."

[Brian]

Sounds like angry hooliganism fueled by recession.  Too simple?

Nope. Sounds right.

The original peaceful protest for the guy who was shot scattered in terror when the looting started, so it's irrational to think of that as anything other than a pretext seized upon by opportunistic thugs.

ZB: Being an American who lives here I really don't know if they're local to the neighborhood or not.

[zamyrabyrd]

A fair portion of them are just scum - the same essentially prideless and disrespectful people who you would feel intimidated by in the street. I would be surprised if many of them live in poverty - it actually takes considerable effort to be truly impoverished in this country nowadays, the poor tend to simply manage their finances very badly. The people taking part are largely spoiled and entitled kids who want free stuff.

How the whole thing flared up is one of the more bizarre occurances in recent history. I initially thought it was over Ian Tomlinson, and a part of me thought "right on!". Then this part of me became crushed and incredulous when I read that it was from a drug dealer dying in a police shootout. This is the extent of the wilfull stupidity we are dealing with:

Yet, a friend of Duggan who gave her name as Niki, 53, said marchers had wanted "justice for the family" and "something had to be done". She said some of them lay in the road to make their point. "They're making their presence known because people are not happy. This guy was not violent. Yes, he was involved in things but he was not an aggressive person. He had never hurt anyone."

Involved in things - hah, that is a step up to what the BBC was broadcasting from the first day, a "father of 4 was killed" as though the wicked police are trigger happy, going after family men.  One can understand their reluctance to do anything more drastic the 2nd and 3rd days in case they might accidentally hurt someone else with a watercannon or something, although force is the only way to stop anarchic mobs.

ZB

[Herman]

Sounds like angry hooliganism fueled by recession.  Too simple?

that, and throw in some police racism, plus, currently, the perception that the current prime minister is a new version of the oldfashioned toff who prefers to spend his time hobnobbing with billionaires like Murdoch, and yet is ushering in very tough austerity measures. (Helpfully the media report Cameron was spending his vacation in a place costing 10.000 a week  -  don't know whether it's pounds, euros or dollars, but anyway it's more than the looters will ever make per year).

The motives are an irrational mix, but that goes for pretty much everything we do.

[DavidW]

The original peaceful protest for the guy who was shot scattered in terror when the looting started, so it's irrational to think of that as anything other than a pretext seized upon by opportunistic thugs.

Wasn't the guy that was shot... was shot out of self-defense by the cops because he pulled a gun on them? 

This kind of reminds me of when I was at Penn State, I was talking to this girl that was in one of the riots there.  I asked her do people just get really mad when we lose a game (football)?  She said actually that game was a tie, and they were planning on rioting anyway no matter what the outcome of the game.

Most of the time I was there Beaver Ave in downtown stood bare with most of the shops closed due to the previous riots.

[Herman]

A fair portion of them are just scum -

and yet, the bad news is, Lethe, scum have to live, too. If there's an upside there's got to be a downside too, to society. And the upsdie has been shooting higher and higher the past couple decades.

we are witnessing the end of an era and the start of a new, very tough age, in which there is virtually no place for non-educated people.

always, there have been people who did not manage to complete school successfully, and in a benevolent society ways were found to keep them going with a sense of dignity. In the new era there is no place for these masses, except as consumers of worthless stuff. Hence looting is the way they express their anger.

I'm not justifying these things; I'm just saying throwing about words like "scum" isn't terribly insightful.

[Guido]

Looters speak:

http://j.mp/ovVGXS

[Grazioso]

always, there have been people who did not manage to complete school successfully, and in a benevolent society ways were found to keep them going with a sense of dignity. In the new era there is no place for these masses, except as consumers of worthless stuff. Hence looting is the way they express their anger.

Then they need to be taught a civilized, constructive way of expressing their anger. You've got a bunch of kids out burning and stealing and harming others with no legal or moral justification whatsoever. Knock 'em down and lock 'em up.

I find it odd that the Metropolitan Police decried "unacceptable levels of widespread looting, fires and disorder." Is there an "acceptable" level in England?

[Brian]

I find it odd that the Metropolitan Police decried "unacceptable levels of widespread looting, fires and disorder." Is there an "acceptable" level in England?

Sure, that's what takes place after football games.

[DavidW]

Looters speak:

http://j.mp/ovVGXS

That sounds like it's just having alot of fun for them and doesn't really mean anything to them.  Even the part at the end about showing the rich people and the cops that they can do what they want sounds well stupid.

Thanks for sharing.

[Lethevich]

and yet, the bad news is, Lethe, scum have to live, too. If there's an upside there's got to be a downside too, to society. And the upsdie has been shooting higher and higher the past couple decades.

we are witnessing the end of an era and the start of a new, very tough age, in which there is virtually no place for non-educated people.

always, there have been people who did not manage to complete school successfully, and in a benevolent society ways were found to keep them going with a sense of dignity. In the new era there is no place for these masses, except as consumers of worthless stuff. Hence looting is the way they express their anger.

I'm not justifying these things; I'm just saying throwing about words like "scum" isn't terribly insightful.

It's true, though. It doesn't give the hows and whys on the subject, but I summed it up as clearly as I could to the person asking. People who specifically choose to loot a local family business rather than try to make a grand statement (such as protesters did early this year invading Tory HQ) have something fundamentally wrong with their sense of decency. It demonstrates the folly of their choices, and the total lack of ideology behind them. These are by and large not people facing poverty (there are people caught in photos wearing designer gear) just people with chips on their shoulder and a sense of mindless entitlement, whether to steal or to be part of something primal that requires no thought.

I'm not sure that like "rich prime minster" enter most of their minds at all in this specific context, he is a distant figure dicking around with foreign leaders. A lot of the "interviews" with the rioters have demonstrated the opposite: a total lack of thought. It would be nice to think that these are kettled-up, ghettoised and oppressed people, but this is no Dionysian orgy of destruction - they are happy "consumers of worthless stuff" and the riots offered a perfect storm of kiddies railing against being bored on Friday night, with the potential for free crap thrown in.

All this dignity stuff I don't buy. When growing up I had equal or fewer opportunities and successes than the majority of those people, I can be quite certain of that due to the ridiculously low base level I am operating from. The difference is that I have been fortunate enough not to fall for moron culture (not related to my interest in classical - all it requires to avoid this pitfall is a reasonably well-exercised brain). Unfortunately the rioters seem to be part of a youth culture which while not celebrating acts like this, certainly makes it easier for them to transition naturally into it en-masse, and it's nothing to do with oppression (although they love to perceive it as that way, as it validates their "why bother" attitude), it's a celebratory thing for them. Being an "underdog" or  failed"grafter" is seen as something to celebrate, and it is that navel-gazing, un-critical quality which makes it so much easier to transition into foolishness like what has been happening over the past few days.

Sorry of this isn't particularly coherent, but these spoilt playing-impoverished people are just the pits. They have education thrown at them, but they rebel, they have welfare thrown at them and rather than improving their lives, they burn it on the same old things but in more extravagant ways so they can retain their street credibility of appearing downtrodden. They are offered extensive opportunities to find work through a network of job centres that are desperate to get people into work (I have considerable experience with these places - they do seem make an effort, and I hardly live in a rich town). At some stage you just have to realise, unless you drag them from their natural habitat of the council estates (which would be seen as "shocking class bigotry" or something), they will perpetuate this cycle because they desire it.

Edit: these are largely children, though - some will grow out of it. But sadly, they will be replaced by newer ones.

Then they need to be taught a civilized, constructive way of expressing their anger. You've got a bunch of kids out burning and stealing and harming others
I find it odd that the Metropolitan Police decried "unacceptable levels of widespread looting, fires and disorder." Is there an "acceptable" level in England?

This reminds me of something I read earlier - an Arab foreign minister has finally condemned Syria, saying "it is unacceptable when over 2000 people are killed", with the implication that numbers somewhat below these are fine.

[Brahmsian]

Sure, that's what takes place after football games.

Or after the Stanley Cup final in Vancouver.     Would not have mattered whether the Canucks won or lost that game 7, which they did lose.  Sports hooliganism isn't exclusive to England.

[Grazioso]

Sorry of this isn't particularly coherent, but these spoilt playing-impoverished people are just the pits. They have education thrown at them, but they rebel, they have welfare thrown at them and rather than improving their lives, they burn it on the same old things but in more extravagant ways so they can retain their street credibility of appearing downtrodden. They are offered extensive opportunities to find work through a network of job centres that are desperate to get people into work (I have considerable experience with these places - they do seem make an effort, and I hardly live in a rich town). At some stage you just have to realise, unless you drag them from their natural habitat of the council estates (which would be seen as "shocking class bigotry" or something), they will perpetuate this cycle because they desire it.

Ironic that compared to a lot of the world, these people live in incredible affluence, ease, safety, and liberty, with a government that kindly offers them education, health care, welfare aid, etc., and doesn't drag them away in the night and murder them because of their religious affiliation or political views. Poor babies.

[Lethevich]

Indeed - they are wannabe oppressed, just like the middle class are wannabe idealistic - like the good old days of activism. The blandness offered by a safe society is not enough (and I must admit, the ease of food and entertainment has ruined my ability to particularly specialise or engage in anything in any meaningful way - too much of everything ).

[karlhenning]

Now listening to the Bonzos, "Can Blue Men Sing the Whites?"

[Josquin des Prez]

police racism

Ha ha, good one.

I don't see the problem with what is happening. Nothing wrong with a bit of multicultural enrichment, right?

[mc ukrneal]

Ha ha, good one.

I don't see the problem with what is happening. Nothing wrong with a bit of multicultural enrichment, right?

Are you joking or are you serious?

[Brian]

Ha ha, good one.

It is worth pointing out that "police racism" has nothing whatsoever to do with any of this. This is not Rodney King II. The guy who was shot by police was an armed (though not firing) drug dealer and the rioters were not even mourning his death anyway - the people protesting his death dissolved peacefully and the victim's family is hiding from looters just like I am.

[karlhenning]

Are you joking or are you serious?

In his case, the answer to both questions is yes.