When in Rome...

[lukeottevanger]

Thanks again for your detailed reply. I don't have time to reply properly at the moment, but you certainly have many perceptive points to make. And you are right to imply that the changing situations people like my grandparents found themselves in make it difficult to make sweeping generalisations. I have in front of me my grandmother's own memoirs, which she typed out a few years ago, and they have reminded me of the subtleties of the situation - for instance, I was wrong, as you guessed, to remember that she remembered only positive reaction in her family when Masaryk rose to power. OTOH, she doesn't speak in hostile terms either (it was 'a severe blow to the minority of the three million Sudeten Germans' but at the same time 'Masaryk really behaved very generously to their German minority allowing them...

' - I don't

think that is after-the-event gratitude, either). I was also wrong to imply in simplistic terms that she felt only Czech, because in the 20s she felt wholly German, culturally, and as a young woman, that meant German more or less wholly. That changed very much later on, for obvious reasons, but she was conscious of it; I don't think it describing herself as Czech was a way of making her origins easier to explain, I think it cut much deeper than that. Later on, for interests' sake, I might copy out some of her memories for you, as they are extremely honest and probably typical of people of her age and background at that time. [/list]

[M forever]

Definitely, that would be very interesting to read. Such memoirs are often highly interesting because they present the "inside" view as opposed to the "larger context" - which in the case of the events in Europe in the first half of the 20th century is so large, it is more or less impossible to grasp. But those "small" inside views are obviously all the more valuable because they are first hand and about the human factors rather than generalized summaries of political events.
I also wanted to give a few biographical examples from people I knew, but the post was already so long. Maybe later.

[lukeottevanger]

They too would be interesting to read, M.

I now feel I ought to modify what I said in my my opening post - '...my mother's parents....considered themselves to be Czech even though they hardly knew the language' - in the light of the subtle changes M has highlighted, but I'll let it stand to make the thread clear. However, I would rephrase it now: Before the war, my mother's parents - I'm talking most specifically about my Grandmother here - considered themselves to be Czech by nationality but German by culture. After the war, I imagine their views couldn't be summed up so simply: they were British by adoption, and loved the country, they looked at Czechosolvakia as 'home'; their cultural roots were still German, but I don't think they were able to see these things in simple national terms any more, understandably. However, it would be wrong to underestimate the extent to which Czech and Czechoslovakia (as it always was to them) meant to them. At my Grandmother's funeral in March the first music played, at her request, was the Largo of Dvorak #9, because it had been used as a symbol of Czech resistance; the last music played (by me) was the Czech national anthem, simply because, though as far from any kind of nationalist as you could possibly imagine, she loved the melody, and it was her home, in the end. My grandfather, meanwhile, who spoke better Czech and as a Prague native was more integrated into 'Czech-Czech' society, continued to think in terms of the language right to the end of his life. Shortly before he died - and I don't know what prompted him - he told me that he'd always like names with the 'Mil-' prefix (connoting love). When our daughter was born a couple of years later we called her Mila.

Anyway, a typically honest and humble relevant excerpt from her memoires, M, as you said you'd like to see it:

Our family soon became loyal citizens of the new state although neither my father nor my mother or grandmother ever learnt to speak Czech. We children were encouraged to learn it at secondary school as a voluntary subject, leter it became compulsory. My mother, far-seeing and open to progress as ever, went so far as to change our French governesses to Czech 'slecnas' for us, but I am afraid I was much less keen to learn Czech from them than I had been to learn French. Unlike many of my school friends, I had no dislike of or resentment against the Czech. I just did not feel that they had as much to offer as the German and French cultures. This was not really surprising as the Czechs had been oppressed for such a long time during which only music seemed to flourish in spite of the oppression. I was, at that time, enchanted by the achievements of German literature, art and music, and happy to belong to this gifted nation. I realised that being Jewish made me slightly different from 'true' Germans but that did not diminish my love and admiration for everything German. After the terrible events that happened later, I find it difficult, and rather painful, to describe to you how integrated and happy I felt growing up side by side with people many of whom behaved so badly later on. I suppose the signs and indications were there all along for those willing to see (and some, like the Zionists, did see) but I was not one of those, and in spite of everything I can't say even now that I honestly regret having spent the first 20 years or so feeling the way I did.

There is a lot more, obviously, about the particularities of life in the Sudetenland at this time, how it affected her parents, their business and so on, which you might find interesting. But the above is the most relevant to our discussion.

[Danny]

Spanglish is the language these days. 

[greg]

Spanglish is the language these days. 

i wish i could pull out some of the Spanglish conversations i've heard from the back of my memory.....

[Danny]

i wish i could pull out some of the Spanglish conversations i've heard from the back of my memory.....

Ahora now estoy teniendo one.

[Kullervo]

Ahora now estoy teniendo one.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Sb7eLgaddI4

[greg]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Sb7eLgaddI4

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
that show's scary

[Greta]

You can absolutely keep your cultural heritage while still adapting to a new culture, and I think it's really important that people celebrate where they come from. A diverse population makes for a more well-rounded society.

We have a huge problem here in Texas with Mexican immigrants never learning English, I mean isn't it a bit absurd to walk into a fast food place and barely be able to order because the employees can hardly speak English? And when you don't learn the language in a new country, it keeps you isolated from the rest of the society.

I lived in The Netherlands with my significant other who was Dutch and looked into permanent residency, and to complete the requirements for that you have to take a year of language and culture classes (called inburgeringcursus and then to pass an exam (that is not easy), or you can't stay. That's all there is to it. I actually think that is an idea for the US. THe residency permit also went sky high (just before I arrived!), I think it cost, no lie around 850 USD. This is also presumably to keep out people who can't pay. Not a bad idea either, though it sucks if you have to pay it. But it assures people end up in your country who really want to be there and are willing to make an effort.

I hasn't lived abroad before and personally felt extremely isolated because I didn't know the language (even though they also speak English), especially at family gatherings. They were very helpful and I started to pick it up quickly. I have to practice a foreign language a ton though to be able to speak it. (I can read Dutch and Spanish still, can understand some spoken, but it is so hard to speak it myself, as I have no one to practice with.) But I wanted to learn the language as quickly as possible. It can be tough, but is absolutely key for feeling part of a new society and gives you so much more enjoyment out of being there.

[greg]

We have a huge problem here in Texas with Mexican immigrants never learning English, I mean isn't it a bit absurd to walk into a fast food place and barely be able to order because the employees can hardly speak English?

we have people like that in Florida, too, though probably not quite like Texas.

I lived in The Netherlands with my significant other who was Dutch and looked into permanent residency, and to complete the requirements for that you have to take a year of language and culture classes (called inburgeringcursus and then to pass an exam (that is not easy), or you can't stay. That's all there is to it. I actually think that is an idea for the US. THe residency permit also went sky high (just before I arrived!), I think it cost, no lie around 850 USD. This is also presumably to keep out people who can't pay. Not a bad idea either, though it sucks if you have to pay it. But it assures people end up in your country who really want to be there and are willing to make an effort.

That's how it should be with the US, but the US has to be so politically correct that's it's retarded. Just let anyone in, yay, let a bunch of people who can't speak the national language into our country.
But.... it shouldn't be that expensive to stay here, either, or no one will be able to move in. So the test would be good, the cost bad. A balance would be nice.

(I can read Dutch and Spanish still, can understand some spoken, but it is so hard to speak it myself, as I have no one to practice with.)

i feel you there.....

[BorisG]

Silly me,  ::)I took the subject literally. I was ready to talk about Rome's palazzos.

[Sarastro]

I actually think that is an idea for the US.

How naive it is. Everyone here (not only on the board but in the US ) comprehends that all the Latin Americans "have to," "must to," "ought to" learn and speak at least simple English.

Come on! It is a very cheap kind of labor force that is not provided with basic benefits, paid the least, and does all the dirty work here, which no one American would consider -- if only not bankrupted and poor. First there were programs for inviting Mexicans for collecting the harvests, which was a seasonal work and required transportation of the workers and a lot of paper work. Very soon smart politicians and businessmen understood that without papers and transportation (just bringing the workers for permanent living) they can make more and more money on this cheap labor force, so...I don't understand what the purpose of talking about what Latin American immigrants must do and what not is...it is just the way it works for the politicians and the rich, and ordinary people just live with it.

When I just came I decided even to learn Spanish, but very soon grew angry with all the Hispanics not speaking English and gave up the idea. Better to learn German or Italian. (and of course English, though I will never be like a native speaker, just too late). Now I even do not care about the illegals -- it is their business, they must take care of themselves. To see the difference, I suggest to read the article, 15 Years on the Bottom Rung, which is arguable (mostly in the respect of time), but is still a nice illustration to what a person with ambitions and willingness might achieve.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E0DEFD71339F935A15756C0A9639C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=4

[pjme]

Blech, no thanks.

Hmm, I don't understand.
Are immigrants helped in any way? Can they go to language courses? Do they have to pay for tuition? Does the government intervene?

Imagine that you are an illiterate Algerian ( Moroccan, Turkish,Polish,Lithuanian,Congolese...raped,abused,widowed) woman of ca 50 years of age...and you have to start a new life.!! Here in Belgium the best work is done by volunteers who take and need lots of time to teach. Especially Moroccan and Turkish women are often afraid of telling their husbands that they are studying. Learning a language is paramount in order to survive.


I learned three ( four) languages at school : Dutch (Flemish), my mothertongue, French ( starting at age 6) ,English (from age 12)  and basic German ( which I speak quite well, I feel uncomfortable in writing it).

[mozartsneighbor]

Excellent topic and discussion.
Growing up as an immigrant in the US I have had a mainly positive view of the impact of immigrants in US society. I think immigrants should be allowed to keep a cultural heritage to a certain degree, but still adapt to their new country's culture.

My views on cultural adaptation and immigration have toughened a bit since I moved back to Europe. Particularly during the 1 and a half that I lived in London, I was astounded at the lack of integration of a great part of the British Muslim population.
This lack of adaptation is not just on a superficial level. Many seem to be still attached to ways of thinking from their home culture that are deeply incompatible with basic principles of Western liberal democracy. And a great part of this population was actually already born in the UK.
Take a look at these articles for example:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1571970/Muslim-apostates-threatened-over-Christianity.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1510866/Poll-reveals-40pc-of-Muslims-want-sharia-law-in-UK.html

This could be blamed either on multiculturalism model of the UK, which actually seems to result mainly in cultural apartheid, or on the fact that the UK tends to draw Muslim migrants from more extremist countries, like Pakistan -- or perhaps it is a result of both.

The cultural heritage immigrants should get to preserve should not conflict with basic principles of the society they are integrating into -- so being more extroverted, listening to salsa music, celebrating Cinco de Maio, or eating burritos is fine, but when the heritage includes honor killings for adulterous women, or wanting to bring over a legal code that includes the death penalty for homosexuals -- then there is deep trouble.

[Bonehelm]

Who just necro'd this thread?   

[Kullervo]

Wow, I completely forgot about this.

I must admit that when I started this thread it was more out of frustration than anything else. At the time, I was living in an area with a huge amount of immigrants and often struggled to communicate with them to provide them the service they expect. I don't know if the government offers education for immigrants wanting to enter this country.

[drogulus]

    I think anyone who moves to a new country should make their best effort to learn the language. I don't think it should be legally required that they do so. All legal business should be conducted in English, though. And there should be a basic citizenship test on American history and political institutions. I believe that's how it works now.

[ezodisy]

And there should be a basic citizenship test on American history and political institutions. I believe that's how it works now.

That is how it works in the UK now too. To become a British citizen you need to take some sort of British test first. Which following our 8 minute Olympic segment I suppose means knowing about all sorts of inconsequential stars and visual attractions.