When in Rome...

[Kullervo]

America is an attractive place to live for many people all over the world, and I think an ethnic plurality is often a good thing, but I feel that people speaking different languages in the same country isolates and divides us from one another, and that immigrants should pass a comprehensive English test before becoming a citizen.

What do you think?

[PSmith08]

America is an attractive place to live for many people all over the world, and I think an ethnic plurality is often a good thing, but I feel that people speaking different languages in the same country isolates and divides us from one another, and that immigrants should pass a comprehensive English test before becoming a citizen.

What do you think?

The United States has no official language as a whole. Congress, and - likely - the American people, through a Constitutional amendment, would have to mandate English as the official national language before any requirements are made. Also, with the meteoric rise of Spanish in the American southwest (and in parts of states like Indiana), who's to say English will be the majority (or even plurality) language of the future? Shouldn't we just let the "linguistic market" determine the regional or even national linguae francae? To me, that seems less intrusive and more tolerant of social diversity. One can, to my mind, furthermore, create a base-line "American culture" without mandating language. I would rather have people who respect American cultures and tradition, and want to be part of that, regardless of language. Languages come and go. Cultural identity, once created, is hard to destroy.

[mahlertitan]

They should speak English, not because of any laws or principles.... they should do it because it is in THEIR best interest to do so.

[M forever]

Emphatically yes. Whatever the "official" status may be, at this time English is de facto the more or less "official" language of the US. And while the US as such does not have an official language, several states actually do. For instance in California, strange as that may seem since there are megatons of people here who speak no or only very little English, English *is* the official language.

What I find pretty bizarre is that when foreigners like me are *legally* imported by an US employer, there is *a lot* of paperwork involved for them to attain the permission to employ a foreigner, and a large part of that is proving that the potential employee has some "rare and highly specialized skills" and that the employer needs those skills in order to fill the position.

And that seems to make total sense. Why should they let people in to do unqualified, unspecialized work?

No, wait - they *do* let them in, by the hundreds of thousands, without any paperwork or fees. They even provide the illegals with social services. Go figure.

At the same time, an employer and employee who go the legal way have to submit all that proof and pay a lot of fees, but guess what? *They don't even check or demand proof that the applicant speaks any English*. And you simply can not work in a "highly skilled or specialized" position in the US without speaking at least half decent English. Because the definition of those skills is not something somehow skilled in the sense of knowing a complicated craft or being able to do complicated magic tricks or whatever. It is defined as something for which you need extensive training or formal studies which resulted in or add up to at least a bachelor's degree or equivalent. In other words, the academic factor is important, and so is the fact that the employee will work in a "higher" position which will definitely require interaction with and often supervision of other employees.

All that is de facto not possible in a qualified position in that sense in the US as it is today. Yet they don't even test that.  No kidding. 


Personally, it totally pisses me off that I run into people all the time who don't speak English and who don't even try. After all, I am a foreigner, too, and I do speak English. I find that respectless and wonder what contribution they think they are here to make. In fact, even though I understand some and can make myself understood in Spanish, in some situations I refuse to communicate with them in Spanish, for instance when I visit job sites and run into workers there who don't speak English. Since I have all gone through all that paperwork to prove how incredibly qualified I am several times over (and my past and present employers between them have paid more than $16,000 in fees for that over the last 4 years), I don't see why I have to deal with people who are apparently here without having some basic qualifications like speaking English.

When I am in Mexico, I always try to speak Spanish because that's what the pople there speak. When they come here, they should try to extend the same courtesy towards the locals.

[Kullervo]

Emphatically yes. Whatever the "official" status may be, at this time English is de facto the more or less "official" language of the US. And while the US as such does not have an official language, several states actually do. For instance in California, strange as that may seem since there are megatons of people here who speak no or only very little English, English *is* the official language.

What I find pretty bizarre is that when foreigners like me are *legally* imported by an US employer, there is *a lot* of paperwork involved for them to attain the permission to employ a foreigner, and a large part of that is proving that the potential employee has some "rare and highly specialized skills" and that the employer needs those skills in order to fill the position.

And that seems to make total sense. Why should they let people in to do unqualified, unspecialized work?

No, wait - they *do* let them in, by the hundreds of thousands, without any paperwork or fees. They even provide the illegals with social services. Go figure.

At the same time, an employer and employee who go the legal way have to submit all that proof and pay a lot of fees, but guess what? *They don't even check or demand proof that the applicant speaks any English*. And you simply can not work in a "highly skilled or specialized" position in the US without speaking at least half decent English. Because the definition of those skills is not something somehow skilled in the sense of knowing a complicated craft or being able to do complicated magic tricks or whatever. It is defined as something for which you need extensive training or formal studies which resulted in or add up to at least a bachelor's degree or equivalent. In other words, the academic factor is important, and so is the fact that the employee will work in a "higher" position which will definitely require interaction with and often supervision of other employees.

All that is de facto not possible in a qualified position in that sense in the US as it is today. Yet they don't even test that.  No kidding. 


Personally, it totally pisses me off that I run into people all the time who don't speak English and who don't even try. After all, I am a foreigner, too, and I do speak English. I find that respectless and wonder what contribution they think they are here to make. In fact, even though I understand some and can make myself understood in Spanish, in some situations I refuse to communicate with them in Spanish, for instance when I visit job sites and run into workers there who don't speak English. Since I have all gone through all that paperwork to prove how incredibly qualified I am several times over (and my past and present employers between them have paid more than $16,000 in fees for that over the last 4 years), I don't see why I have to deal with people who are apparently here without having some basic qualifications like speaking English.

When I am in Mexico, I always try to speak Spanish because that's what the pople there speak. When they come here, they should try to extend the same courtesy towards the locals.

From where do you hail, M?

[Hector]

...and when the numbers of Spanish speaking Latinos are in the majority, then what...?

[M forever]

Then it will be Mexico, and then it won't matter anymore anyway.

From where do you hail, M?

I'll give you a hint:

[M forever]

[karlhenning]

Gosh, and here I was hoping this was a thread about the Penguin Cafe Orchestra . . . .

[Kullervo]

Gosh, and here I was hoping this was a thread about the Penguin Cafe Orchestra . . . .

[Kullervo]

...and when the numbers of Spanish speaking Latinos are in the majority, then what...?

What do you mean, "then what"? Is that supposed to be a threat?

No, this poll was not aimed at Spanish-speaking Latinos, or any ethnic group, but at all immigrants that do not bother to learn English before coming to the states.

[mahlertitan]

My opinion is same with Teddy Roosevelt; if you choose come to this country, then drop the whatever cultural baggage you have, you are an American, you speak English. It's that simple. Or else, go back where you came from!

[greg]

yeah, i think they should.
That's one of the things my dad complains about sometimes, how it's different for some of the people he knows, like this one guy who used to live in France. It's more necessary to speak French there if you're living there, and that's it should be. If you come to America, you need to know English.

I'd say most people who do come here actually make an effort to do so, but it's hard. I can imagine from a foreigner's point of view that English would be an extremely hard language to speak and even write, but it's better to practice than not doing anything at all and just hang around the people who do speak your language.

So when I see those Ingles sin Barreras commercials on TV played nearly every commercial break on Univision or Telefutura, i know it's a good thing. 

[M forever]

My opinion is same with Teddy Roosevelt; if you choose come to this country, then drop the whatever cultural baggage you have, you are an American, you speak English. It's that simple. Or else, go back where you came from!

That is way too much, a view from a time fortunately long gone. I think it's obscene to refer to immigrants' backgrounds as "cultural baggage". If people wouldn't have brought all that "baggage" with them, then there wouldn't be much here. No, people who immigrate into another country should bring all that with them and enrichen their new homeland.

They should just learn the basics of how to be a part of their new community, and that is most certainly the most widely spoken language, "official" or not. Whatever else they do, what lifestyle they chose to live, what cultural elements they want to keep or adopt, should be completely up to them.

An exception would be if people are granted asylum because they are fleeing from persecution in their original homeland. Obviously, you can't make their fate depend on a language test or similar in such a situation.

[Kullervo]

My opinion is same with Teddy Roosevelt; if you choose come to this country, then drop the whatever cultural baggage you have, you are an American, you speak English. It's that simple. Or else, go back where you came from!

I don't agree with this view. As I noted in my original post, I'm all for an "ethnic plurality," that is, not exactly a "melting pot," but a healthy mix of different cultures that adds up to one great culture.

Although, I understand what you mean to say. Speaking a different language from everyone else certainly counts as "baggage" in my book.

[mahlertitan]

That is way too much, a view from a time fortunately long gone. I think it's obscene to refer to immigrants' backgrounds as "cultural baggage". If people wouldn't have brought all that "baggage" with them, then there wouldn't be much here. No, people who immigrate into another country should bring all that with them and enrichen their new homeland.

They should just learn the basics of how to be a part of their new community, and that is most certainly the most widely spoken language, "official" or not. Whatever else they do, what lifestyle they chose to live, what cultural elements they want to keep or adopt, should be completely up to them.

again, i am saying this because it is in their best interest to do so. Imagine that you are a new immigrant, you come to a new culture, new language new way of life, what do you want really? You want to fit in, and make friends, and blend with the new community. To do that, you must forget your old culture (for now atleast) and immerse your self in the new one. Perhaps you could show some of oyur heritage when you are accepted into the community, but until then, it is best if you speak English, and wear appropriate clothing. This is especially true for a teenager, it is very tough for a teenager to come from one culture to another, and for his/her own sake, it is important to blend in first.

[M forever]

What a horrible idea. If immigrants didn't bring many elements of their "old" culture with them, then we would have complete monocultures everywhere, not the multilayered complexity that makes cultures everwhere interesting - and all interconnected. Imagine all the German immigrants had left their culture behind, then this country would hardly have any symphony orchestras.

[greg]

is it just me, or does it sound all of you are arguing for what is basically the same thing?

all of you have basically said: "Learn the language and try to fit in with the culture while preserving your own culture", more or less. That's basically all there is to it.

[sidoze]

America is an attractive place to live for many people all over the world, and I think an ethnic plurality is often a good thing, but I feel that people speaking different languages in the same country isolates and divides us from one another, and that immigrants should pass a comprehensive English test before becoming a citizen.

What do you think?

You should try living in London mate. When out you hear a different language every few minutes. And that's not from tourists, it's from people who live here.

[karlhenning]

You should try living in London mate. When out you hear a different language every few minutes. And that's not from tourists, it's from people who live here.

Yes, who can forget Professor Higgins in that opening scene of My Fair Lady!