Composers before originality....

[madaboutmahler]

I always find it interesting to listen to the early works of a composer as I often find myself thinking "Well, this sounds exactly like ...". Only a few composers have managed to dive into their first work and claim that they have already found their own distinct original style...

So this topic is a place to discuss various early works of the great masters before they found their own original style.
Here are a few pieces (great pieces anyway!) off the top of my head when I think of a composer's early non original style!
Wagner: Symphony in C Major
Mahler: Piano Quartet
R.Strauss: Burlesque for Piano and Orchestra
Stravinsky: Symphony in E Flat
Schoenberg: Pelleas und Melisande

I am sure many of us will be able to think of more!

Looking forward to responses,
Best Wishes
Daniel

[snyprrr]

So many of today's august Composers, who got their start in the '50s, started off writing dry-as-dust total serialism. Dieter Schnebel's first SQ runs @2mins.

Denisov, Halffter, Bussotti, Castiglioni, etc.,... all flowered from an initial, quasi Borg-like mindless devotion to Darmstadt. I can't think of anyone who still plays that card,... not even for nostalgia's sake, haha!

[Opus106]

Janacek: Lachian Dances

[Brahmsian]

I felt that Brahms was pretty original right out of the gates and in many of his early works.  Think of the string sextets as an example, or the early piano sonatas.

[Brahmsian]

Webern's Passacaglia, Op. 1 sounds pretty original, to me.  But that's just me.

[Opus106]

Ray, you may want to read the OP once more.

So this topic is a place to discuss various early works of the great masters before they found their own original style.

[Brahmsian]

Ray, you may want to read the OP once more.

Right, sorry.  I guess I was going 'opposite' topic.   

[Brian]

Dvorak's early music is really interesting because you can hear this tension between Dvorak's future voice and the influences he's grappling with. The String Quartet No 1 is a work I've only heard once, but I remember my impression being that of a Beethoven "Razumovsky No 4"! The Second and Third Symphonies are particularly important battlegrounds between, on one side, the influences of Beethoven, a handful of earlier Czech composers, and Wagner (in No 3), and on the other side the irrepressible spirit of Dvorak himself, which most obviously bursts out into the open in the second half of No 2.

Another composer whose trajectory is fascinating to track is Stravinsky: from the Rimskian (and Rimsky-quoting) Firebird through the fresh glowing colors of Petrushka and... well you know what happened next.

I'd also like to mention Haydn's violin concertos, Beethoven's Septet, Roussel's Debussian Symphony No 1, and Bizet's Symphony in C, though you could say that little classical gem was a 17-year-old already becoming a master.

[madaboutmahler]

Right, sorry.  I guess I was going 'opposite' topic.   

This topic can also be about composers who were born original as well, don't worry, Ray!

Looking forward to more feedback, I agree with the Bizet, Roussel that has been mentioned.
Daniel

[PaulSC]

Elliott Carter is an interesting example. His early work — the Holiday Overture, the viola/piano Elegy, the early choral settings — is written in a neoclassical style shared by many other American students of Nadia Boulanger, although he seems at times uncomfortable in that skin. Transitional works like the late-1940's Piano Sonata (with its polymetric leanings) hint at his mature voice. But it wasn't until the 1950's, or just before, that the pitch and rhythm syntax of his subsequent work fell into place.

[not edward]

Lutoslawski falls into this place for sure; it's only with the Five Songs and Funeral Music that he decisively turns away from his Bartok/Stravinsky inheritance. Similarly with Ligeti's Hungarian period; such a sea-change in Apparitions, even though it was the flower of seeds that were planted before the composer had moved to the West.

Martinu didn't really hit on a distinctive sound/style until he was into his 30s; but there's a lot of early works out there. Similarly with the prolific Hindemith's earlier works.

[starrynight]

I doubt anyone is completely original.  And maybe with most composers their style evolves rather than completely changes.

[Pierre]

Sometimes there are ways of measuring originality, by means of comparison.

Take Britten's Passacaglia from Peter Grimes, the passacaille from Dutilleux's first Symphony, and the passacaglia from Lutoslawski's Concerto for Orchestra: the themes of those works are so alike on first hearing you might think they are the same theme. All three of these composers, then, worked from a similar premise. But while Dutilleux developed into the great & original & distinctive composers they became, Britten remained stuck on the premise, straining but failing to break free from his cocoon

A curious suggestion. Are you seriously suggesting that using a similar theme equates to working 'from a similar premise'? Even assuming that you are, then can you demonstrate that Britten continued to be 'stuck on the premise'? Does that passacaglia theme keep cropping up in his music?

[ibanezmonster]

Very good thread idea.

I felt that Brahms was pretty original right out of the gates and in many of his early works.  Think of the string sextets as an example, or the early piano sonatas.
Webern's Passacaglia, Op. 1 sounds pretty original, to me.  But that's just me.

Brahms and Webern have written the most original works to be labeled "op.1" that I know of. Brahms' op.1 actually sounds only like Brahms. Webern's op.1 is in its own world, and then he found another style to make his own.


As for not very original, Prokofiev's op.1 1st Piano Sonata sounds like something Rachmaninoff could have written (and it's still good). Beethoven, obviously, sounds very Haydn-ish early on. Scriabin sounds something like Liszt or Chopin.

Mahler's Piano Quartet was mentioned- sounds Schumann-ish. After that, though, he was completely himself. Das Klagende Lied sounds completely himself (with some moments that sound Wagnerian), but by the 1st Symphony there's nothing to connect him to other composers other than the overall effect sharing the same era and music culture.

[Opus106]

[\B]y the 1st Symphony there's nothing to connect [Mahler] to other composers other than the overall effect sharing the same era and music culture.

Indeed. It was an independently Rott wrought piece of music.

[Mirror Image]

Brahms and Webern have written the most original works to be labeled "op.1" that I know of. Brahms' op.1 actually sounds only like Brahms. Webern's op.1 is in its own world, and then he found another style to make his own.

I don't know about this. Have you heard Berg's Piano Sonata, Op. 1? Sounds pretty original to me.

[Brahmsian]

Brahms' op.1 actually sounds only like Brahms.

Hey Greg, just keep in mind Brahms probably lit up his cigars for about a year with crumpled sketches and scores that he lighted up, lit his cigar, and threw the sketches/scores into the fire.   

[Brahmsian]

Early to mid Schubert is very HaydnBeethovenesque and very classical era in nature.

[madaboutmahler]

During the XXth Century people ofter wondered where the Arts could go after modernism. The answer so far: nowhere. The West has been exhausted by that last gap effort of creativity.

That is an interesting quote. What do you think composers should do now then? As a composer myself, I am always been told that my music is too romantic in style and that it needs to move forward to a more up to date style, i.e modernist (as such). Is this necissary when so many other composers have done/are doing this? Maybe now is a time to look back and revisit older styles and add little differences.... a major idea will need to be thought of in the next few ideas otherwise the arts won't be able to move forward at all!

I can semi agree with the Berg Opus 1 being completely original, it's rather different from his later works!

What do you think of Rachmaninov? I rather think that the first works (first piano concerto etc) already made clear his original style, although it drastically changed with the later works of course!

Much enjoying reading all of this, keep the comments coming!

Best Wishes
Daniel

[ibanezmonster]

I don't know about this. Have you heard Berg's Piano Sonata, Op. 1? Sounds pretty original to me.

Yeah, that, too.