Where should music go now - after modernism?

[madaboutmahler]

I am continuing this idea from a previous topic I created about originality.

What should a composer try to achieve to be original now after the extreme radical forces of modernism?! As a composer myself I tend to be looking back to romanticism and impressionism and mixing the two. Maybe composers these days could try something more like that, mixing previous styles to create something more "new" (as such). But many composers still seem determined to continue developing modernism even further - is this really possible?

Your interesting ideas will be very welcome in this topic.

Best Wishes,
Daniel

[Grazioso]

I am continuing this idea from a previous topic I created about originality.

What should a composer try to achieve to be original now after the extreme radical forces of modernism?! As a composer myself I tend to be looking back to romanticism and impressionism and mixing the two. Maybe composers these days could try something more like that, mixing previous styles to create something more "new" (as such). But many composers still seem determined to continue developing modernism even further - is this really possible?

Your interesting ideas will be very welcome in this topic.

Best Wishes,
Daniel

Frankly, I think it's a foolish mistake for an artist to focus on originality as a goal in and of itself. Is the chief goal of art to somehow be different from one's peers?

And don't worry about the extremes of modernism: those were ignored, bypassed, or partially incorporated by many 20th-century and contemporary composers who never became some sort of doctrinaire Darmstadt disciples.

[starrynight]

There is too much emphasis on originality for it's own sake at times, it never used to be like that I think.  As to where music should go, I think it would be a bit presumptuous of me to think I should say where it should go.  It will go where it will depending on fashion and who influences a particular direction, maybe some new changes in technology.  And I'm not sure how useful it is trying to forecast the future in art, and whether someone is creating something that is in mode or not shouldn't bother them.

[karlhenning]

Follow your own muse, like they did .. and be as honest about what you are doing as possible. Being creative it no easy task right? Listen to your own stuff and if you hear more of your influences speaking (musically) than 'yourself' in it .. than quit listening to your heroes. Be honest about that. Deprive & purge yourself. Be influenced by their work ethic, as opposed to the actual work itself. Divorce all style. Keep your ears & eyes on what's going on around in today's world. Be brave & fearless .. be prepared to a wide dynamic of reception; give up the idea of having everyone like what you do; give up the idea of making lots of money. Create freely & practice, practice, practice ..

Is this advice from the armchair, James?

[snyprrr]

Follow your own muse, like they did .. and be as honest about what you are doing as possible. Being creative it no easy task right? Listen to your own stuff and if you hear more of your influences speaking (musically) than 'yourself' in it .. than quit listening to your heroes. Be honest about that. Deprive & purge yourself. Be influenced by their work ethic, as opposed to the actual work itself. Divorce all style. Keep your ears & eyes on what's going on around in today's world. Be brave & fearless .. be prepared to a wide dynamic of reception; give up the idea of having everyone like what you do; give up the idea of making lots of money. Create freely & practice, practice, practice ..

I agree.

The only problem is, if I did that, I'd sound like ME, and not want I WANT!

I have two strains in me, which are like oil and water: The Scientific, and The Sentimental/Nostalgic. Xenakis vs. Finzi. I have no real desire to forge these to elements, but I couldn't see myself writing in the guise of two separate, and unique from each other, entities.

If I were to write music for this type of audience, surely it would be something totally ridiculous, something more of the Downtown NYC scene, as opposed to the Uptown scene. Singers with chopsticks in their nose, and such like.

On one hand, I'd love to write a Pettersson Symphony for String Quartet, but on the other hand I'd like to do outrageous, nude, IRCAM type stuff (in the nude, I mean!). I mean, 'Group Sex for Quartet' sounds like something I'd have embarrassingly committed.

Find a bum who plays cello, find a hooker, and there ya go!! Oh, go ahead and get a tape recorder while you're at it.



Seriously,,,, how is this any worse than what I'm sure is being proposed at this very second?



WHO??? is going to write ANOTHER Symphony??? Hasn't Arvo shown that the Symphony is

As the World Gestapo continues marching around at the behest of their bankster masters, I predict that ANY music not specifically designed to calm the Great Unwashed will be Verboten!! Yes, we are difinitely heading towards a terrifying era that surely will make the Zhandov(??) Purges sound like Jingle Bells.

The music of the future will be used for CONTROL of the population (not saying Gaga isn't at the forefront here, haha). Singing a love song will get you executed.

SSSS... AAAA... FFFF... EEEE... TTTT... YYYY... DANCE!!

[eyeresist]

There is too much emphasis on originality for it's own sake at times, it never used to be like that I think.

It's the Modernist fallacy, that new cultural products are only valid if they start from zero. So the crisis of Modernism was the awareness that it had become a tradition: "We can't keep doing this stuff - it has precedent!" The only thing left to do is overt pastiche, i.e. Postmodernism. Once that is over with, art is dead, OBVIOUSLY.

If only novelty has value, in the end nothing has value.

[Mirror Image]

Music should go wherever it needs to go. The creative minds make this decision, not us. There are so many strains of music that it's really impossible to determine what direction something can go. The best thing to do is to let the music flow naturally and not try to worry about it's future. Only the present is important in the grand scheme of things, because everything you do now will change the outcome of the future. You can't worry about the past, because it is something that has already happened. The only way to move forward is to have a grasp on the present.

[Mirror Image]

This is basically true. Music will go wherever musicians take it
(Unless it's the musicians who go wherever music takes them; but that's a rephrasing of the same idea)

What? Wait a minute....do you actually agree with me on something? Wow...

[eyeresist]

Beware the doppelganger......

[Grazioso]

Well this, and other similar topics, are simply mental masturbation. The craft is still being done. The art is still being created. There's nothing after and there never was a crisis. Reminds me of the arguments in theoretical science. Bunch of jamokes who are detached from the real world.

Anyone who knows their classical music knows that lots of composers just kept doing their thing and didn't bother to take part in the excesses and experiments of modernism. Unfortunately, the traditional narrative of classical music history that many people get fed focuses on novelty and major stylistic shifts to tell its story.

Nevertheless, I think you're oversimplifying. I've read of more than a few composers who started writing doctrinaire academic modernist works and came to a difficult crossroads where they felt they had to shift back to a more conventional, accessible style to express themselves honestly and connect with audiences. And certainly, there was nasty politicking and polemicizing over modernism and musical style during the 20th century, and composers who got shut out of the loop for not following modernist party orthodoxy: read Alex Ross's The Rest is Noise for some examples.

[not edward]

Honestly, I don't see any reason why music 'should' move in any direction, particularly in a period where it is so diverse ('many rivers,' as Paul Griffiths puts it). Any world where we can enjoy the latest works of both Elliott Carter and John Adams is, hopefully, one where we're not interested in whether it's modernist music or conservative music, but whether it's good music or bad music.

Utopian, perhaps, but not a bad ideal to live by, I think.

[karlhenning]

Honestly, I don't see any reason why music 'should' move in any direction, particularly in a period where it is so diverse ('many rivers,' as Paul Griffiths puts it). Any world where we can enjoy the latest works of both Elliott Carter and John Adams is, hopefully, one where we're not interested in whether it's modernist music or conservative music, but whether it's good music or bad music.

This.

[Grazioso]

Honestly, I don't see any reason why music 'should' move in any direction, particularly in a period where it is so diverse ('many rivers,' as Paul Griffiths puts it). Any world where we can enjoy the latest works of both Elliott Carter and John Adams is, hopefully, one where we're not interested in whether it's modernist music or conservative music, but whether it's good music or bad music.

That would be buying into teleological grand narratives of music that express its history as a linear evolution. It's messier than that in reality.

Perhaps its wisest to view all the musical experiments of the 20th century as simply adding new options--for both listening and composing. Strip the polemical baggage and let a composer use, modify, or ignore those new ideas as appropriate.

[karlhenning]

I like that, too.

[DavidW]

Honestly, I don't see any reason why music 'should' move in any direction,

I think that new music should move into the concert hall.

[Grazioso]

An apposite quote from Ligeti:

"I am in a prison: one wall is the avant-garde, the other wall is the past, and I want to escape."

[karlhenning]

If there are only two walls, he should be able simply to walk off . . . .

[not edward]

If there are only two walls, he should be able simply to walk off . . . .

Judging by his mature output, there were only two walls. For him, anyway.

[Grazioso]

Judging by his mature output, there were only two walls. For him, anyway.

The anxiety of influence at work? If that quote can be taken at face value, he was busy looking at the fingers pointing at the moon, instead of the moon itself, to borrow a Zen metaphor. He defines his perceived dilemma through exclusion and negation, through a false dichotomy.

[Grazioso]

One of the ironies of classical music is that listeners and musicians will play and enjoy a centuries-old piece of music and treat it not as a quaint historical artifact but as a living, relevant, timeless entertainment. But then there's a critical perspective that treats music history as a succession of revolutions, with each new style or technique rendering the previous one moribund.

You may still listen to Brahms, but you may no longer compose like him?