Where should music go now - after modernism?

[karlhenning]

Difference doesn't automatically generate quality.

QFT

That I agree with: to consciously try to write music that is somehow glaringly different from what has come before is to work from a negative perspective. Instead of writing what sounds good to you, you're trying to make sure it doesn't call to mind existing music.

Seems to me that no few great artists did both without any conflict (wrote what sounded good to them, and in conscious contrast to specific musical elements of their fairly recent past). Stravinsky leaps to mind.

[eyeresist]

Originality is a quality that may be obviously evident in those works, or not.  But when originality becomes an end in itself, I think a composer has lost his way.  I value a composer's individual voice much more than "orginality" since many composers will display individuality but not necessarily orginality in the same measure.

I was just thinking about this, as regards tradition vs experimental method. Working from a tradition, one has recourse to many devices and techniques which have been proved over the years. In experimental mode, the possibility of artistic failure must logically be much higher - unless you regard "originality" (as opposed to individuality) as itself equivalent to success.

That's just the point: you can approach artistic creation from an "objective," hands-off perspective,

But as I said, I don't think it's possible to remove the artist from the process without removing the art.

[some guy]

Working from a tradition, one has recourse to many devices and techniques which have been proved over the years. In experimental mode, the possibility of artistic failure must logically be much higher - unless you regard "originality" (as opposed to individuality) as itself equivalent to success.

I regard adventure as more adventuresome.

I don't think it's possible to remove the artist from the process without removing the art.

Well, online music forums have certainly succeeded in removing the listener from the process, except maybe as a querulous chorus of nays about anything within the last hundred years that doesn't sound like it came from the hundred preceding years. And look where that's gotten us.

[Grazioso]

Well, online music forums have certainly succeeded in removing the listener from the process, except maybe as a querulous chorus of nays about anything within the last hundred years that doesn't sound like it came from the hundred preceding years. And look where that's gotten us.

A cheap shot, methinks. Someone promoting modernist/avant-garde/contemporary works or aesthetic principles is no different than someone advocating earlier ones.

[DavidW]

A cheap shot, methinks.

Not really, you need to look at the atonal smackdown thread on TC to get what Some Guy is talking about.  The language used there is much stronger than what is being used here, and some of the posts are offensively ignorant of 20th and 21st century music.

[Grazioso]

Not really, you need to look at the atonal smackdown thread on TC to get what Some Guy is talking about.  The language used there is much stronger than what is being used here, and some of the posts are offensively ignorant of 20th and 21st century music.

I would hope this thread isn't viewed as an argument, but rather as a thought experiment, where extreme hypotheses are being posited to elicit freshly considered definitions and solutions. What's happening on some other forum isn't germane, I hope.

[Brahmsian]

Not really, you need to look at the atonal smackdown thread on TC to get what Some Guy is talking about.  The language used there is much stronger than what is being used here, and some of the posts are offensively ignorant of 20th and 21st century music.

David, I'm surprised all members involved in the argument at TC haven't been all banned and kicked off of TC!   

[Brahmsian]

Also, and unrelated, how does one block an avatar without simply ignoring the poster?

Is my acorn disturbing you, Philo?   

[Brahmsian]

Not at all. I detest avatars that move.

I will concur on this, I do find them a little distracting at times.

[DavidW]

David, I'm surprised all members involved in the argument at TC haven't been all banned and kicked off of TC!   

The thread was temporarily locked once, but other than that not much happening!  My impression over the past few months is that the mods don't do much over there unless it's behind the scenes.  The mods seem more active over here.

[DavidW]

Not at all. I detest avatars that move.

I do too.  You can go under profile settings -> look and layout and there is an option to not display user avatars.

What I do instead is use Firefox with adblock + and use it to block only that user's avatar.  For example Grazioso had some obnoxious moving avatar, and I blocked only that.

[eyeresist]

Is TalkClassical relevant to anything ever?

I regard adventure as more adventuresome.

Well, online music forums have certainly succeeded in removing the listener from the process, except maybe as a querulous chorus of nays about anything within the last hundred years that doesn't sound like it came from the hundred preceding years. And look where that's gotten us.

Adventuresomeness is a personal taste, not a requirement of quality.

Not sure what the remark about music forums means, unless you mean people are basing their musical opinions on what they think others deem acceptable. I don't think many do that round these parts. Or are you just saying that the people don't know what's good for them? I propose that the people should be dissolved and new one elected!

[Brahmsian]

What I do instead is use Firefox with adblock + and use it to block only that user's avatar.  For example Grazioso had some obnoxious moving avatar, and I blocked only that.

I find the one -abe- has even more annoying and distracting.  I'd prefer he go back to the dancing MC Hammer one, if anything. 

[eyeresist]

All images off. I am in a flat, pictureless (low bandwidth) bliss!

[DavidW]

I find the one -abe- has even more annoying and distracting.  I'd prefer he go back to the dancing MC Hammer one, if anything. 

I probably blocked that one too!  I very quickly move to block animated avatars!  I hate them, they are in such poor, poor taste.  An eye sore on an otherwise beautiful forum.

[DavidW]

All images off. I am in a flat, pictureless (low bandwidth) bliss!

That is pretty cool... it puts the emphasis squarely on the words!

[eyeresist]

That is pretty cool... it puts the emphasis squarely on the words!

It surely does that - makes me feel all intellectual (though Some Guy will soon disabuse me of that). On the rare occasions I have to turn the images on, I find the result quite garish.

[thalbergmad]

Someone promoting modernist/avant-garde/contemporary works or aesthetic principles is no different than someone advocating earlier ones.

True, but in my experience the way they are received is and I speak as a partially retired modernist basher.

Thal

[DavidW]

I would hope this thread isn't viewed as an argument, but rather as a thought experiment, where extreme hypotheses are being posited to elicit freshly considered definitions and solutions.

Yeah we all know that you're playing devil's advocate!

What's happening on some other forum isn't germane, I hope.

But it is germane.  Some guy said "the internet" and then you misread him to mean "this thread", I'm simply correcting you, and elaborating on what he was probably thinking about.  TC is not alone either, there are strong anti-modernist vibes on most classical music internet forums.

[some guy]

A cheap shot, methinks. Someone promoting modernist/avant-garde/contemporary works or aesthetic principles is no different than someone advocating earlier ones.

Nay-saying and advocating are two very different things. Opposites, in fact. I was talking about nay-sayers only.

That said, I will say that promoting modernist/avant-garde/contemporary works or aesthetic principles is probably doing better work than someone advocating earlier ones, simply because the earlier ones don't really need the support.