Stanley Bate(1911-1959)

[Christo]

You do know that you can download both these performances of the Bates Piano Concertos Nos. 2 and 3 over at UC, don't you, Johan?

I didn't know at the moment of posting, but found it out in between (reading the complete thread a little after, testing my new Iphone  ). The historic recording of the second concerto is fine and a moving experience, imho. My kids (6 and 5) were humming the lyrical theme of the slow movement, yesterday.

I also read that you respond very positively to Bate as well. 

[cilgwyn]

Absolutely marvellous (and I must admit to being VERY impressed by the Reizenstein,too!). Glad to see David CF Wright & 'Christo' share my enthusiasm for this music.
Also,must admit to being completely and utterly perplexed by some of the negative comments on a certain other forum! And,not wanting to appear 'catty',but some of the composers THEY rate?!!!!!! Andrew Clements of the Guardian (& certain other well known newspaper & magazine critics),eat you're collective heart/s out!!!!

Oh well ('cattiness' aside),each to his own!

                                                                                          Miaow!

[vandermolen]

I have just got round to listening to Bate's Piano Concerto No 2 on Dutton - gosh, what a great score; I have been playing it continuously and love the eloquent slow movement and the epic tune in the finale. My admiration for Bate grows.

[Dundonnell]

I have just got round to listening to Bate's Piano Concerto No 2 on Dutton - gosh, what a great score; I have been playing it continuously and love the eloquent slow movement and the epic tune in the finale. My admiration for Bate grows.

Indeed It is such a pity that Dutton has not got more Bate for us in their next (February) batch of recordings Instead we are getting more Edward German, the Frederic Austin symphony(again!, Classico has already recorded it), Lionel Sainsbury's cello concerto, Christopher Wright's violin concerto, a piano concerto by Percy Sherwood and the John Foulds cello concerto.
(Don't take this as absolute gospel-Dutton has made no official announcement and this comes as unofficial info' )

Now these pieces are, no doubt, pleasant enough but they are what I would call 'soft romantic' British music, much of it very early 20th century either by date or idiom or both. If I had to nominate an unrecorded  British violin concerto and cello concerto then the Wright and the Sainsbury would be nowhere near the top of my list.

I don't grudge lovers of this type of British music getting what they want but this particular Dutton batch disappoints me. There is nothing of a more modern hue to provide a proper mix.

[cilgwyn]

Agree! I used to quite like the old 'complete' emi recording of 'Merrie England' when I was a youngster (good old fashioned singing) & the songs are great in the bath ............. but he's not exactly the kind of composer that gets me going! I mean,Bate,Reizenstein,even Holbrooke (I actually DID quite enjoy their last Holbrooke cd!),but Edward German & Frederic Austin?!!!
Yawn!

The Bate & Reizenstein cd was stuck on repeat for a couple of days!

[vandermolen]

Indeed It is such a pity that Dutton has not got more Bate for us in their next (February) batch of recordings Instead we are getting more Edward German, the Frederic Austin symphony(again!, Classico has already recorded it), Lionel Sainsbury's cello concerto, Christopher Wright's violin concerto, a piano concerto by Percy Sherwood and the John Foulds cello concerto.
(Don't take this as absolute gospel-Dutton has made no official announcement and this comes as unofficial info' )

Now these pieces are, no doubt, pleasant enough but they are what I would call 'soft romantic' British music, much of it very early 20th century either by date or idiom or both. If I had to nominate an unrecorded  British violin concerto and cello concerto then the Wright and the Sainsbury would be nowhere near the top of my list.

I don't grudge lovers of this type of British music getting what they want but this particular Dutton batch disappoints me. There is nothing of a more modern hue to provide a proper mix.

I agree Colin although I like Foulds very much. I expect you were disappointed at the absence of any new York Bowen recordings too 

[mc ukrneal]

I mean,Bate,Reizenstein,even Holbrooke (I actually DID quite enjoy their last Holbrooke cd!),but Edward German & Frederic Austin?!!!
Yawn!

Gonna steal Mad's hammar and give you a good whack I am!!   Love Edward German - I've bought the Duttons discs (which are outstanding), Marco Polo, Naxos, etc. Nothing boring there at all. Have only just discovered Foulds, who I suspect I will enjoy a lot. Now back to our Bates programming!

[cilgwyn]

I did give a nod to 'Merrie England',to be fair to me! In my opinion,possibly the best 'home grown' operetta after G & S (and the wonderful & sadly neglected 'The Arcadians').
Actually,I was merely sharing my disappointment,with Dundonnell,that Dutton's choice of repertoire seems a little on the safe side,this time around. After,the knockout Bate/Reizenstein disc,I think I was hoping for something equally ear popping! Nothing wrong with Edward German at all,or Foulds,but quite allot of their output has been recorded recently & there are so many gaps that could be filled ie some Daniel Jones,David Wynne,Fricker,or what about some Gaze Cooper? And,I do find Holbrooke strangely intriguing,even if what I hear tends to be a bit of a curates egg,at best!

[Dundonnell]

Indeed

All I was lamenting was the lack of balance. I have no issue with recording Edward German and certainly not with recording the Foulds Cello Concerto, which was a major gap in the recorded repertoire of British cello concertos. But Foulds HAS been treated very generously by Dutton in the last year or so and, if you add on the recordings by Lyrita and Warner, this now means that virtually every piece of extant Foulds orchestral music will be on disc.

I have absolutely no problem with that either or with the recordings that have been made in the last two or three years of Joseph Holbrooke or Cyril Scott or York Bowen (by Dutton and Chandos) or, for that matter obviously,  the more 'modern'(ie early 20th century ) William Alwyn or Stanley Bate or Richard Arnell.

I happen to remain relatively unconvinced that Holbrooke was a particularly wonderful composer(outside of his atmospheric tone poems) and I am not really much in sympathy-as you know -with Bowen or Scott but I do love the music of Alwyn and Arnell, and the Stanley Bate I have heard(and there is more Bate which needs to be heard!!) BUT these composers, by and large, share the same qualities. In a nutshell these revolve around a degree of "easy listening".

I don't mean by that phrase that the music is not sometimes complex or does not require attention from the listener but there is a 'romanticism' about the music which, by and large, means that there is little that is abrasive, tougher, call it what you will. Late Arnell may be an exception but, apart from the 6th and 7th symphonies, we haven't heard much.

Yes, Dutton has recorded some more modern British music: David Matthews and Paul Patterson spring to mind, but what about those composers born before Bate and Arnell-composers like Cooke or Wordsworth-or their contemporaries Daniel Jones, Humphrey Searle, or the younger Fricker and Hamilton

These are all to varying degrees 'grittier' composers and their orchestral music has been ignored by Dutton.

Wonderful company though Dutton undoubtedly is and I have bought many Dutton releases and will continue to do so I am increasingly conscious that it seems to be concentrating on 'safe options'

[mc ukrneal]

I am all for filling the gaps and widening the offering. On this, we can totally agree!

[cilgwyn]

I tend to agree with everything you say,Dundonnell. There is a tendency by record labels,like Dutton,to record more immeadiately tuneful,or romantic repertoire. I would definately,like to see more recordings of the kind of composers you mention. It's the one big downside of this current renaissance of interest in neglected composers & rather (VERY!) annoying!!!!  

Tend to agree with you about Holbrooke,too! When,I say he intrigues me,I mean that he's not all bad. There are flashes of inspiration there & some beautiful,even exciting orchestration,which will make me sit up & think,hey,that was good! But then there are longeurs and a strange feeling of shapelessness to even his best work. It seems to me,that Holbrooke had a vivid,if inconsistent imagination, a flair for colourful orchestration & gothic gloom,but very little aptitude when it came to basic structure or form. A fatal flaw! Yet,there are enough good bits & gothicky gloom to make me want to try more,even though I'll most probably end up being disappointed!
  Actually,in my opinion,Holbrooke was far more interesting as a person,than a composer.Although,not to be with,of course!!! He lived in Wales,had allot of interesting colourful friends & a well written biography would probably be a far more worthwhile project than an expensive recording of Apollo and the Seaman! Although,again,I wouldn't mind hearing that. It has been referred to as Mahlerian somewhere,but I'm a little dubious,to say the least! And then of course,there was that infamous slideshow!!!! Oh dear,that ego!!!! How they laughed!

As to Scott. I do like some of his music.....BUT,it has to be said that,there's only so much shadowy,occult,incense laden chromaticism,one can take!!! Variety was not Scott's forte,I fear! His First Piano Concerto & third symphony are dazzling works in their own way & I rather like his shadowy,Fourth,BUT,there is a feeling of 'sameness' to allot of his output & pheweee......it really CAN be a bit much!!!! Talented as he undoubtedly was,I get the feeling that Cyril Scott is one composer who really DID need to lighten up! (In hindsight,I really DO think Chandos were wise to stop when they did!)
On a more positive note,his chamber & instrumental music is,to my ears,allot better. I actually quite enjoyed the recent Chandos & Naxos cds of this side of his output!

As to Bowen!!!!! And Gaze Cooper......well,at least they haven't done him yet (although,Cameo have released a bit,apparently!).

I've got the Holbrooke 'Aucassin & Nicolette cd on now,which strikes me as the most consistent Holbrooke cd I've heard,so far. For once,his ideas seem to be good most of the way through,athough,curiously the ballet really seems to take off about midway. There is,to my ears,some gorgeous orchestration here & some sprightly tunes. In fact,I am amazed that a miserable sod like Holbrooke could write music like this! Maybe,he was better at light music? Presumably,the fact that it is made up out of short movements freed Holbrooke's imagination from the fetters of form. No worries about structure here,for Mr Ego!
Or maybe,there is some really good Holbrooke out there,after all? I really DO like this disc! IF only the other Holbrooke cd's I've heard were as consistent as this!

[cilgwyn]

I notice that Stanley Bate's Piano Sonata No 2 op 59 (1949) performed by John Kersey,is on Youtube!

Wierd! I've got as far as Holbrooke's Saxophone Concerto & I'm STILL enjoying this Holbrooke cd!!! Must email Dutton in case it's faulty!!!!

[Christo]

To my mind these cds have been a revelation.

That's still my position too, especially after the release of the Second Piano Concerto proved that we have every reason to expect much of his other work. BTW, I find the historic recording of Bate playing the solo part himself quite moving (there's a link in this thread and it's also found on Youtube). Vandermolen is absolutely right in singling out the lyricism of the second movement (interrupted by a bit of 'Gershwin') and the epic theme of the finale, returning twice, the second time in a longer version that makes it unforgettable and -again- very moving.

So far, I've been enjoying Bate even more than Arnell. For me he's the most important 'find' in a couple of years. Let's hope Dutton will continue the series. As I would also look forward to a complete Ruth Gipps and Arnold Cooke cycle, to mention two more names.

[cilgwyn]

Marvellous. You listen & you think,'Why hasn't this been recorded before?' It's that good! I honestly think it's the best British Piano Concerto I've ever heard. Allot of British Piano concerto's,frankly,bore me. Bax's Winter Legends is an exception,except that it isn't a Piano Concerto & it's VERY OTT in places. Other likes include,Bax's Symphonic Variations,but again it's not a Piano Concerto really & maybe it meanders a bit too much to be taken seriously by anyone except a few enthusiasts,like me. And then there's Fould's remarkable 'Dynamic Triptych? But the Bate really IS something & I can't really see any musical reason why it should have been neglected,except Bate's bad luck,health,early death & fashion!
The recordings of Stanley Bate playing are fantastic. They are definately of more than curiosity value. A commercial cd release would be a must buy & I hope it will eventually happen. Maybe Dutton will oblige?

Love the Reizenstein,too.

[vandermolen]

Marvellous. You listen & you think,'Why hasn't this been recorded before?' It's that good! I honestly think it's the best British Piano Concerto I've ever heard. Allot of British Piano concerto's,frankly,bore me. Bax's Winter Legends is an exception,except that it isn't a Piano Concerto & it's VERY OTT in places. Other likes include,Bax's Symphonic Variations,but again it's not a Piano Concerto really & maybe it meanders a bit too much to be taken seriously by anyone except a few enthusiasts,like me. And then there's Fould's remarkable 'Dynamic Triptych? But the Bate really IS something & I can't really see any musical reason why it should have been neglected,except Bate's bad luck,health,early death & fashion!
The recordings of Stanley Bate playing are fantastic. They are definately of more than curiosity value. A commercial cd release would be a must buy & I hope it will eventually happen. Maybe Dutton will oblige?

Love the Reizenstein,too.

I agree with you re Bax's Symphonic Variations and Foulds's very dynamic 'Dynamic Triptych' and would add Cyril Scott's 1st Piano Concerto, the VW, especially in the two piano version (Vronsky, Babin and Boult is my favourite) and both by Bliss and Rawsthorne's No 2. The Bate is wonderful though and I'm playing it again now. Also Ireland's 'Legend' which I prefer to the Piano Concerto + Bridge's 'Phantasm', Walton's 'Sinfonia Concertante', Rubbra's PC (wonderful opening) and Arnold's and Gordon Jacob's for Two Pianos.

[cilgwyn]

One of the most recorded,the Britten Piano Concerto,always strikes me as a bit too derivative & nowhere near as interesting as any of the concerto's you list,Vandermolen. And I write that as one who enjoys allot of Britten;but for some curious reason,only in his own recordings,albeit with a few exceptions.

After finishing the recent Holbrooke (Aucassin & Nicolette) cd from Dutton,which I really DO ACTUALLY enjoy,I tried another Holbrooke cd from my Holbrooke pile. Unfortunately,despite some felicitious touches,the inconsistencies of Holbrooke's muse,once more,raised their problematic heads & off it went!
NB: I DO like his Violin Sonata No3 in f 'Orientale' op 83 (1926),also on the Dutton label;coupled with Sonata's by Walford Davies,Rootham & a Sonatina by Benjamin. A nice disc of suprisingly enjoyable music. Holbrooke's Sonata is short & sweet,unlike some of his music. Though,I can't see anything  Oriental about it!

Back to Bate!

[cilgwyn]

Frickers third symphony is another stunner. It is viscerally very exciting,and despite it's stern demeanour,suprisingly approachable,even lyrical. The pounding theme,or motif really grabs hold of you & once you've heard it you don't forget it. No meandering here,just relentless propulsion. And unlike some symphonies of this sinewy,steel like ilk,it's very easy to get to know. The first time I heard it,I enjoyed it. No second or third assessments,I just thought,'Wow! What's this?!!!' It was the kind of music you hear on the radio & everything has to stop until you've listened all the way to the end. Luckily,I was taping allot of 'off air' stuff at the time,so the C90 cassette was ready to hand! A fantastic symphony! If I had a record label I'd be literally jumping through hoops to record it. It really DOES stand out,even if you don't usually like this kind of composer!

[lescamil]

Gordon Jacob's for Two Pianos.

Where has this been recorded? I have seen the Arnold a few times on disk, but never Gordon Jacob's.

[Dundonnell]

Where has this been recorded? I have seen the Arnold a few times on disk, but never Gordon Jacob's.

Jeffrey is, I fancy, referring to the Concerto for three hands on one piano, composed for Cyril Smith and Phyllis Sellick in 1969 and first performed in 1970.This work can be performed on two pianos but the recording features one piano. Regrettably, the LP recording has never been transferred to cd afik.

[lescamil]

Jeffrey is, I fancy, referring to the Concerto for three hands on one piano, composed for Cyril Smith and Phyllis Sellick in 1969 and first performed in 1970.This work can be performed on two pianos but the recording features one piano. Regrettably, the LP recording has never been transferred to cd afik.

Yes, I realize that he was referring to the Concerto for three hands. I checked the Gordon Jacob website, and it mentioned that, if I recall correctly, that it was only available though BMIC, but not that it was ever released on LP. I guess I can scour the internet for a copy, possibly.