Composers you don't get

[Luke]

Which is what i said. Its not Jazz, its is a Jazz idiom notated in classical context. Kapustin is not Jazz anymore then Bartok was Hungarian folk song.

OK, fine, then you are just using the word 'notated' incorrectly, I suppose. That confused me. But, yes, in that case we do agree about this.

[Josquin des Prez]

Rubbish, because back in the real world, it's perfectly possible to prove it, once you've agreed terms.

No it isn't, because the terms are unassailable. You can't prove genius in a scientific manner. Once again, that is why modern materialism is a rotten philosophy that has only been able to produce rotten art.

The problem with Kapustin is that it is harder to make the case for him. It's not relativism that is making me dispute claims for Kapustin's almighty greatness. It's the opposite - I think that others are demonstrably greater.

Hence, lies your problem. Genius cannot be demonstrated. By definition.

[Josquin des Prez]

Listen to Bartok and then listen Kapustin and tell me who is more original.

Brahms was not original either. Meaning, not a genius. Who is being ridiculous now?

The point is that Bartok was not merely notated Hungarian folk music, anymore then Kapustin is notated Jazz, which it isn't.

[Mirror Image]

It's interesting that you cast this in light of an "admission." And yes, I've seen the film.

You're not answering my question, I note.

When Duke and Monk were composing, was their activity antithetical to the whole purpose of jazz?

The answer is simple: they weren't thinking about the purpose of jazz. They were thinking: let's make some music. But, in the end, it doesn't matter what their intentions were, because the end result is a music that's full of improvisation, which is the epitome of jazz music.

[Josquin des Prez]

Jazz is not about improvisation in and of itself. This canard has been gone long enough as it is.

[Luke]

No it isn't, because the terms are unassailable. You can't prove genius in a scientific manner. Once again, that is why modern materialism is a rotten philosophy that has only been able to produce rotten art.

Hence, lies your problem. Genius cannot be demonstrated. By definition.

Doesn't feel like a problem to me. We know the term 'genius' is a loaded one for you, one that means something very different for you than for anyone else, so let's not get back on that tedious track.

[Mirror Image]

It's still a stretch to claim the whole purpose of jazz is improvisation. That creates an artificial boundary between composition and improvisation, it neglects other key jazz elements (such as swing and characteristic instrumentation), and downplays the fact that many compositions in jazz are beloved in their own right and have becoming hallmarks of certain players, styles, and albums.

A jazz composition might be "just" a sketch--it might be conceived primarily as a harmonic framework upon which to improvise--but someone thought it important enough to write one to serve as such an organizing principle for the music, instead of playing pure free jazz.

I agree, Grazioso. Where would jazz be today without greats like Ellington, Benny Golson, Jimmy Heath, Wayne Shorter, among others churning out delicious compositions? My point was that improvisation is the crucial element in jazz music whether one agrees with me or not, without this, then shouldn't we call it something else?

[karlhenning]

Shades of the jazz thread coming back to haunt us... Hang on, I need to make a bag of popcorn so I can sit back and enjoy this... 

Hope you've made enough to pass around!

"Samples"? You just intuit these things, claim you're right, and then make fun of people who disagree. It's easy!   

I knew I was working too hard at this ; )

[Luke]

[Kapustin is] Jazz notated in a classical medium.

The point is that Bartok was not merely notated Hungarian folk music, anymore then Kapustin is notated Jazz, which it isn't.

Glad you've come round to the normal use of the word 'notation'... 

[Josquin des Prez]

Doesn't feel like a problem to me. We know the term 'genius' is a loaded one for you, one that means something very different for you than for anyone else, so let's not get back on that tedious track.

Well, i would you go on proving that a composer was a genius, under your definition?

[Mirror Image]

Brahms was not original either. Meaning, not a genius. Who is being ridiculous now?

The point is that Bartok was not merely notated Hungarian folk music, anymore then Kapustin is notated Jazz, which it isn't.

You have no point. All your credibility, what little you had, went out the window when you starting making ridiculous claims about Kapustin and trying to prove them as facts.

Here's a fact: Kapustin isn't as great as you've made him out to be.

[Josquin des Prez]

Glad you've come round to the normal use of the word 'notation'... 

Notated in a classical medium. Meaning, the form is classical, the Jazz element is merely thematic. Kinda like what Bartok did.

[karlhenning]

Here's a fact: Kapustin isn't as great as you've made him out to be.

Well, you almost cannot throw a dead cat around GMG without hitting a composer who is not so great as his enthusiasts claim ; )

[Josquin des Prez]

Here's a fact: Kapustin isn't as great as you've made him out to be.

He can't be. He is too much of his own personality to pigeonhole himself to what modernity defines as genius (which is, whoever can be the most decadent).

[Mirror Image]

Notated in a classical medium. Meaning, the form is classical, the Jazz element is merely thematic. Kinda like what Bartok did.

As I said where are Kapustin's masterpieces? Where is his Bluebeard's Castle? Where is his Piano Concerto No. 2? What is an orchestral work of his that will make me bow down to his unheralded greatness?

[Luke]

No. Notated refers only to the writing down of the music. Notatin gin a classical medium/idiom doesn't really mean anything, but if it does, it only means written down using classical notation. I know what you are trying to say here, and I agree with it - I agree with what you are saying about the role of jazz in Kapusitn 's music, I mean. I'm only objecting to your use of the words.

Well, i would you go on proving that a composer was a genius, under your definition?

I woudn't be that bothered. It's just a word for me, of loose definition. It isn't such a sacred cow for others as it is for you.

[Luke]

He can't be. He is too much of his own personality to pigeonhole himself to what modernity defines as genius (which is, whoever can be the most decadent).

Damn, must have missed a meeting...

[Cato]

                    :                               ARE YOU READY FOR SOME FOOTBALL?
                                               
                                                                                   
                                               
                                               
                                                
                                               
                                               
                                               
                                               
 
 

[karlhenning]

Damn, must have missed a meeting...

You and me, both.

                    :                               ARE YOU READY FOR SOME FOOTBALL?
                                               
                                                                                   
                                               
                                               
                                                
                                               
                                               
                                               
                                               
 
 

There's a flag on the play.

[karlhenning]

As I said where are Kapustin's masterpieces? Where is his Bluebeard's Castle? Where is his Piano Concerto No. 2? What is an orchestral work of his that will make me bow down to his unheralded greatness?

Maybe it's in a medium which isn't your bag.  (Just a thought. I've not heard any Kapustin, so I don't have a dog in that race.)