Beethoven Symphonies HIP

[Greta]

but that's just part of the "craft" and it's still much easier than all the different fingerings woodwind players have to learn. The main "problem" with the horn is really hitting the right notes completely freely, since you can only rely on "muscle memory" and good ears to hit the notes, there are no visual or tactile (other than the "memory" of your "grin muscles") reference points to rely on.

I actually think that is harder than woodwinds, because we basically push down a bunch of keys. The tone and intonation is the hardest part.

Oh, I sucked at the horn. Really baaaad. It sure was fun though. I had to take basic classes in the various instruments in college, and I was bad news on the brass. Trumpet worst of all. Trombone I was half decent at, go figure, the bigger mouthpiece helped and I have a good ear so could hit the positions.

I was actually a really quick learner on violin because of a good ear and seriously regret that I didn't take it up as my parents suggested when I was young. Instead I was fascinated by the saxophone, oh well. We have an old violin around here, maybe I'll try it again sometime.

[M forever]

I actually think that is harder than woodwinds, because we basically push down a bunch of keys. The tone and intonation is the hardest part.

I didn't mean playing the horn as such is easier. I meant that the transposing and different fingerings for F and Bflat horn are easier compared to the all the fingerings you have to learn on a woodwind instrument. On the horn, there are just 7 different combinations (x2 for the double horn) of the three valves, so that is really easy to learn and it leaves enough space in the brain for transposing and stuff. Plus you rarely play as many notes as woodwinds sometimes do, so the "thinking" and "fingering" part is fairly easy. It all comes down to the tone production which is indeed very difficult and tricky.

[PerfectWagnerite]

Cool clip with the penguins. Is that real?

[M forever]

I think the falling penguin is, but the "evil" penguin isn't. There is also this version:

[PerfectWagnerite]

I think the falling penguin is, but the "evil" penguin isn't. There is also this version:

Funny, the left and right seem to be reversed (for the two main penguins that is) for the 2 clips. Somehow the background penguins are in the same place.

[M forever]

Yes, that's because the "evil" penguin is obviously pasted in while I think the rest is real. The one where he stretches out his foot is done a little more crudely, the evil penguin actually shifts for a moment and the foot looks a little blocky. But the other one (which is funnier anyway because it's even sneakier) looks so good, I stared at it trying to figure out if it is real for quite a while.

[longears]

Nor would I call Gardiner particularly "HIP". Yes, he plays on old instruments and he does all the other things which superficially look "HIP". He choses quickish tempi, and he has the hard timpani sticks and all that. But what is almost completely missing from his cycle is the rhythmic flexibility, the rhetorically inflected phrasing, and other stylistic elements which are far more important to being "HIP" than the hard sticks....  I think he totally failed. What we have here is an astonishingly mechanical, sterilized and glossy run-through of the 9. Accident free and uncontroversial. One may like that, but it's not a real "HIP" performance, that's for sure.

Thanks, Que, for indirectly directing me to this thread.  Looks as if an interesting discussion started before it turned into a pissing contest.

Though I don't always agree with "M," he's one of the frequently more interesting and illuminating posters around.  Sorry to see he's vanished again.  I especially agree with his assessment of the Gardiner cycle, above.  I'm astonished every time I hear someone praise this--it's as if led by a metronome.  Utterly characterless.  It is "pretty," however.  A HIPish cycle for those who like Karajan's blenderized Beethoven.

HIP = Historically Informed Performance.  HIP ≠ slavishly imitating what some authority imagines a performance back then might have sounded like.  HIP does not require period instruments.  Neither do period instruments themselves make a performance HIP.

I'm still waiting for the ideal HIP Beethoven symphonies.  The most enjoyable ostensibly HIP set I know is Brüggen's.  I love the sprightlyness, the rhythmic and dynamic flexibility, the crunchy & piquant sonorities, the liveliness of this set.  It's a lovely contrast to the staid, ponderous, self-important performances that dominated the 20th Century.  But Brüggen's not entirely successful, either.  His approach calls just a bit too much attention to itself, as if the style is more important than the music...and maybe it was at the time.

I hope that the HIP movement today is no longer such a novelty, that its goals and methods have been accepted into the mainstream, and that we ought to expect some absolutely superb HIP recordings of the cycle soon, ones that hold their own against any committed to 1s and 0s, past or present.  It's only a matter of time.

[Bogey]

David,
Have you heard Hogwood's take?

[Que]

Thanks, Que, for indirectly directing me to this thread.  Looks as if an interesting discussion started before it turned into a pissing contest.

And here is to other (general) thread: HIP Beethoven.

Q

[longears]

David,
Have you heard Hogwood's take?

Yes, Bill, but long ago and haven't revisited in some time.  I've classified them as "staid, conservative"--perhaps reassessment is due?  What do you think?

[Bogey]

Yes, Bill, but long ago and haven't revisited in some time.  I've classified them as "staid, conservative"--perhaps reassessment is due?  What do you think?

Based on memory and only a handful of listens:

1-2 Excellent for me.  Nice touch.  Possibly too light for some.
3 Above average.
4 Excellent.
5 Below average....approaches struggling at times.
6-8 Excellent.
9 I am too frightened to buy this one....just cannot invision it with this tandem.

Do you see the same pattern that I do?

[Gurn Blanston]

Yes, Bill, but long ago and haven't revisited in some time.  I've classified them as "staid, conservative"--perhaps reassessment is due?  What do you think?

Enjoyed your interesting assessment of HIP in general. Pretty much the same as my own, so of course I hold it in higher esteem than many.

Brüggen's is the only period instrument cycle that I don't have, and would very much like to put an ear to. As for Hogwood, I don't hear them as staid and conservative, rather, I find them fairly gung-ho, and a bit ragged in places, which feels right to me. If you find Gardiner too polished, you shouldn't have the same objection to Hogwood!

For modern instrument HIP, I have 1, 2, 4 & 6 by Heidelberg/Fey, and unlike some, I find them very interesting and well-played.



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Now playing: Clementi: Complete Symphonies (Disc 1) - Philharmonia Orchestra & Francesco D'avalos - Symphony No. 2 in D - 1st mvmt - Adagio - Allegro - 13/16

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Now playing: Clementi: Complete Symphonies (Disc 1) - Philharmonia Orchestra & Francesco D'avalos - Symphony No. 2 in D - 2nd mvmt - Larghetto cantabile - 14/16

[Bogey]

If you find Gardiner too polished, you shouldn't have the same objection to Hogwood!

jwinter enjoys both, but I believe agrees with this assessment Gurn.  Gardiner has smmoth corners where Hogwood slices.

[DavidW]

jwinter enjoys both, but I believe agrees with this assessment Gurn.  Gardiner has smmoth corners where Hogwood slices.

By implication, does that make Beethoven's symphonies cheese?

[Harry]

Hogwood and Gardiner are essential to me, they both represent a corner of the true genius of Beethoven. But honesty force me to say that I like the Karajans and Zinman also very much, and still have a sweet tooth for Sawalisch. Van Bruggen for me is the worst HIP set I ever heard, and more to the point the worst Beethoven I ever heard, rather would listen to Haitink, and that says a lot in my case.

[Lethevich]

Van Bruggen for me is the worst HIP set I ever heard, and more to the point the worst Beethoven I ever heard, rather would listen to Haitink, and that says a lot in my case.[/i]

I think M hated Bruggen in Beethoven too, or was it Weil?

[Bogey]

By implication, does that make Beethoven's symphonies cheese?

[longears]

Okay, Hogwood, here I come!

[FideLeo]

I think M hated Bruggen in Beethoven too, or was it Weil?

Bruggen for sure. 

[PerfectWagnerite]

For modern instrument HIP, I have 1, 2, 4 & 6 by Heidelberg/Fey, and unlike some, I find them very interesting and well-played.



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Now playing:

Yeah, Fey is fabulous. Would like to see a complete cycle from him.

The only HIP cycle I don't have is Brueggen, but I have his 1st which doesn't bow me over at all.