Beethoven Symphonies HIP

[Harry]

By all means Martin, try the Zinman again. The third is fast, but the organic connection between tempi and music is near perfect.
Norrington is even faster, and still I find it comprehendable.

[karlhenning]

When I started with Gardiner, that was a relive for me, for allthough I loved my Karajan renditions, I always felt there was something missing, and that was tempo.

I always knew you were one of us, mijn vriend 

[Que]

Just a announcment of a new recording:



I liked Bruno Weil's recording of the 5th & 6th very much indeed.
Will be curious about this one - anyone heard it yet?

It got trashed by Cristoph Huss on Classicstoday France. But I wasn't impresssed by the argumentation: it was too quick and there was far too litlle vibrato... He might just as wel copy-paste those comments for any HIP-recording...

Q

[PerfectWagnerite]

Just a announcment of a new recording:



I liked Bruno Weil's recording of the 5th & 6th very much indeed.

You do? I personally think they are some of the worst HIP Beethoven I have ever heard. Tepid, lackluster and shrill and dimly recorded with very little detail. I never like this conductor/orchestra much but in Baroque music they were at least not as offensive. This is an example of what gives HIP a bad name. I guess the premise is that by using a tiny size orchestra of some 35-40 players you will bring out more detail, not that you couldn't hear pretty much every single detail in recordings by the likes of Wand and Szell. If you like Beethoven played like Bach and Handel this is just the right cup of tea for you.

[Bulldog]

You do? I personally think they are some of the worst HIP Beethoven I have ever heard. Tepid, lackluster and shrill and dimly recorded with very little detail. I never like this conductor/orchestra much but in Baroque music they were at least not as offensive. This is an example of what gives HIP a bad name. I guess the premise is that by using a tiny size orchestra of some 35-40 players you will bring out more detail, not that you couldn't hear pretty much every single detail in recordings by the likes of Wand and Szell. If you like Beethoven played like Bach and Handel this is just the right cup of tea for you.

I also like Weil's recordings of syms. 5 and 6.  I couldn't imagine anyone finding them disagreeable, but PerfectWagnerite proves me wrong.

[Bunny]

Intentions are never provable, and all interpretation is in the mind of the beholder. In context of the entire portrait, I would never associate the riding crop with anything phallic. However, the producers of this album made the association inevitable when they blew up that section and displayed it out of context.

Funny, but when I looked at the detail, I didn't focus on the whip at all.  I saw the brass buttons on the buckskin breeches, and thought of the strange opposition of British aristocratic country style with a revolutionary cockade.  Then I thought of how Beethoven, despite all of his talk about equality, passed  himself off as an aristocrat by allowing all of of Viennese society to think that the "van" in his name was the equivalent of the aristocratic "von" in Austrian names. 

As I said, it's all in the eye and mind of the beholder.

[Que]

You do? I personally think they are some of the worst HIP Beethoven I have ever heard. Tepid, lackluster and shrill and dimly recorded with very little detail. I never like this conductor/orchestra much but in Baroque music they were at least not as offensive. This is an example of what gives HIP a bad name. I guess the premise is that by using a tiny size orchestra of some 35-40 players you will bring out more detail, not that you couldn't hear pretty much every single detail in recordings by the likes of Wand and Szell. If you like Beethoven played like Bach and Handel this is just the right cup of tea for you.

I also like Weil's recordings of syms. 5 and 6.  I couldn't imagine anyone finding them disagreeable, but PerfectWagnerite proves me wrong.

I can't place the comment on the recording. I looked up what I wrote about it: "Recording leaves nothing to be desired - simply natural and perfect." I do hear a lot of detail, but certainly the recording does not artificially "highlight" specific instrumental parts as is often the case with recordings of larger orchestras. This is not necessary here because of the "tiny" orchestra..  , and the result is what I described as "natural".
Making Beethoven sound like Baroque seems quite impossible. But if you mean to say that Weil's conception of these symphonies is firmly rooted in the Classical era - sure. Which is - just stating the very obvious - quite appropriate. (You could say he makes it sound like Haydn, if you like.. )

Well, time to give this recording a fresh spin this afternoon!

Q

[Lilas Pastia]

You do? I personally think they are some of the worst HIP Beethoven I have ever heard. Tepid, lackluster and shrill and dimly recorded with very little detail. I never like this conductor/orchestra much but in Baroque music they were at least not as offensive. This is an example of what gives HIP a bad name. I guess the premise is that by using a tiny size orchestra of some 35-40 players you will bring out more detail, not that you couldn't hear pretty much every single detail in recordings by the likes of Wand and Szell. If you like Beethoven played like Bach and Handel this is just the right cup of tea for you.

I'm generally not too keen on Bruno Weil's work. But listening to this 7th's last two movements on my way to work last week was a big (musical) thrill. Either the conductor/orchestra/producer/engineers have found a way to record the 7th correctly (it's luminous, punchy, crystal clear) or my ears have come to accept that a good dose of ammonia was needed to clean up my ears to that kind of approach. In any case, here's a Youtube video of the 'traditional' way, Matacic whipping up the NHK Symphony into a frenzy. Although it's very brisk and exciting, it's top-heavy (tiring to the ear and obscuring inner voices) and slightly heavy-footed. In matters of balances and rythm I prefer Weil. Too bad this disc is paired with the 8th. It's my least favourite Beethoven symphony.

[Shrunk]

I'm generally not too keen on Bruno Weil's work. But listening to this 7th's last two movements on my way to work last week was a big (musical) thrill. Either the conductor/orchestra/producer/engineers have found a way to record the 7th correctly (it's luminous, punchy, crystal clear) or my ears have come to accept that a good dose of ammonia was needed to clean up my ears to that kind of approach. In any case, here's a Youtube video of the 'traditional' way, Matacic whipping up the NHK Symphony into a frenzy. Although it's very brisk and exciting, it's top-heavy (tiring to the ear and obscuring inner voices) and slightly heavy-footed. In matters of balances and rythm I prefer Weil. Too bad this disc is paired with the 8th. It's my least favourite Beethoven symphony.

I saw Weil and Tafelmusik perfrom these Symphonies earlier this year, and it was one of the most exciting concerts I have attended recently.  Even the 8th managed to grow on me.  During the finale of #7, my 11 year old daughter repeatedly broke out into giggles of delight (Discreetly and quietly, of course).

[Bunny]

Sounds very good, but both movements are too slow for me.

Is that for real?  Tempos seem quite brisk to me; who does them faster without sounding rushed?

[Sorin Eushayson]

Is that for real?  Tempos seem quite brisk to me; who does them faster without sounding rushed?

I agree with Harry, they're both a tad off-pace.  If I remember correctly, Norrington took them both at full-speed, though I thought his 5th lacked authority.  I've become very fond of Immerseel's rendition as of late, the most successful I've heard; he moves very quickly yet still retains the piece's power and grandeur.

[Bunny]

I think Norrington took them both at full-speed.  I've become very fond of Immerseel's rendition as of late, the most successful I've heard; he moves very quickly yet still retains the piece's power and grandeur.

I'll have to dust off the Immerseel and Norrington, although Norrington's first set (yes the HIP one) is not really one of my favorites.  In any event, it's not always all about speed; just listen to the jumble of Norrington's 9th!

[Sorin Eushayson]

I'll have to dust off the Immerseel and Norrington, although Norrington's first set (yes the HIP one) is not really one of my favorites.  In any event, it's not always all about speed; just listen to the jumble of Norrington's 9th!

Yes, his Ninth was terrible.  For that there's Gardiner or the latest recording from Spering...

[Kuhlau]

€15 at jpc



Q

Let JPC keep it - these interpretations bored me to tears.

(And hello to Elgarian - the same one I know from Talk Classical, I presume? Enjoying this old thread of mine? Not slinking away to cry too hard behind your CDs? Excellent! )

FK

[Que]

Let JPC keep it - these interpretations bored me to tears.

[FideLeo]

(Bruggen Beethoven)

Hmm I spent $$ (USD 45) on it years ago.  In this age of slim packaging, I found the set's heavy-gauged slipcase and elaborate flip-fiver jewel case quaintly fascinating.

[Elgarian]

(And hello to Elgarian - the same one I know from Talk Classical, I presume?

The very same. Hello to you too, FK.

Not slinking away to cry too hard behind your CDs?

No, I seem to have got away with it very lightly ....

[prémont]

Hmm I spent $$ (USD 45) on it years ago.  In this age of slim packaging, I found the set's heavy-gauged slipcase and elaborate flip-fiver jewel case quaintly fascinating.

So did I, about 5 months ago. On your recommendation.
A purchase I regretted.
A nice and harmless Beethoven = not Beethoven at all.

[Que]

So did I, about 5 months ago. On your recommendation.
A purchase I regretted.
A nice and harmless Beethoven = not Beethoven at all.

Although I posted it as a bargain - because many members do like Brüggen's Beethoven or are interested in getting it. I have mixed feelings about it myself: see previous comment HERE.

Q

[FideLeo]

So did I, about 5 months ago. On your recommendation.
A purchase I regretted.
A nice and harmless Beethoven = not Beethoven at all.

MY recommendation = sales pitch
But Bruggen's Beethoven is really more than nice and harmless -- it has a grand orchestral sound and fairly broad concepts (admittedly not exactly my idea of period Beethoven).