Beethoven Symphonies HIP

[Rod Corkin]

Fortunately for me, Rod, I have no need to feel better about myself. These 'myths' as you call them were all started by you, so since I have no other reason to doubt them I take them at face value. It is very nice to hear that you are listening to other composers without having an axe to grind with them. This is the sort of positive 'turning-of-the-leaf' that I like to see happen to people.  

I started no myths, it was other people's presumptions. I have been passing comments for over a decade about Bach and Mozart and Schubert etc etc, often things that some people would prefer not to read. That is their decision but how do you think I came about these comments without hearing the music?

There is no leaf turning for me, I have always listened to every piece of music placed before me by whoever composer, as I have done at my site from day one. The reason why I keep coming back to Beethoven and Handel is that they are simply much better than the others as far as I am concerned, hardly a radical position given that they are two of the most respected composers. But I know people who are far more selective in their listening than me, who present themselves as being open to everything. A far worse crime sir!

Now I have put you straight nothing further needs to be said on the matter. I think we should go back on topic...

[Brian]

To continue my derailment of this thread, back onto the Schubert cycle--

The much loved Immerseel recording is OOP, but Brüggen is easy to get.  Is his recording of Schubert's symphonies good?

Hate to be perverse, but somehow I acquired Immerseel's Fourth "Tragic" Symphony - maybe an upload to this very forum?? Anyhow, it's really peppy and a delight to the ears, although, like every other recording of the work, it totally fails to convince me that it's "Tragic." 

[Brian]

I love your taste!  It's execrable, but at least you're consistent so far, thus may prove more helpful than those who are all over the map.  And your arrogance is a hoot!  You're like a character in a Monty Python sketch...no wonder Karl gets such a kick out of your pompous inanities!

We're lucky our resident oddballs have such thick skin...

[Franco]

I have noticed that my listening preferences have changed over the last few years.  Whereas before I felt the need to buy recordings of new works by new composers, now I find myself seeking out new performances (some brand new, others historic, or some recommended by a reviewer I have come to trust) of the major works of a handful of composers.

I recently began buying different recordings of Beethoven Piano Sonatas, followed by various recordings of Mozart Piano Concertos.  Now I am onto Mozart Operas.  This thread has gotten me interested in expanding my Beethoven Symphonies beyond the Karajan, Bernstein, Waller and Blomstedt sets I have.

After hearing the Immerseel Mozart PC set, and not being entirely taken with the sound of the fortepiano, I may take a hard look at his Beethoven Symphonies, since the sound of the orchestra in the Mozart was very good.

[DavidRoss]

The hootiness is an act, but the opinions amongst it all are real. No one doubts that your opinions are "real"--too bad you cannot grasp that just because your opinion is "real" does not mean that it's informed, meaningful, or coincides with objective reality.

Hey I was moderating Beethoven forums more than ten years back, I fondly remember the war zone that was the Edepot Beethoven forum about 12 years ago. It was all relatively new in those days so everyone was totally 'unbound'. It's just not the same now.  This complete non-sequitor suggests that the point of my anecdote seems to have sailed right over your head...but given your posting history I should not be surprised.  Let me restate it as simply as possible:  even if your ludicrous claim were true, the "fact" that you've spent more hours listening to Beethoven than all of the members of GMG combined says nothing whatsoever about the validity of your judgments.  Repeated exposure does not entail learning or understanding -- as you've demonstrated time and again.

Well that's the trouble with Immerseel's Beethoven symphonies, they are rather too easy listening, the spark of fire never quite ignites. I have many of his fortepiano CDs but his conducting here is a let down, certainly he has nothing new to say compared to the other period instrument sets on offer. If you are new to HIP Beethoven it may be worth considering, but if you are an old campaigner you can easily bypass this set.  You may repeat your opinions as often as you like.  Nevertheless, they remain nothing more than your opinions, and people with different tastes and greater understanding are not likely to substitute your superficial judgments for their own informed and considered ones.  Furthermore, instead of compelling sympathetic agreement, your dismissive arrogance only encourages others to dismiss you right along with your beliefs.

I think that's everything clarified, so I can give the matter my third and final 'adieu'. 'Tis a consummation devoutly to be wished.

[karlhenning]

To continue my derailment of this thread, back onto the Schubert cycle--

 

[Rod Corkin]

This complete non-sequitor suggests that the point of my anecdote seems to have sailed right over your head...but given your posting history I should not be surprised.  

Oh I knew exactly what your point was David, which is why I made a mockery of it. It is an unfortunate trait amongst a number of GMG regulars that they think they are much cleverer than they actually are, and typically the 'discussion' here from said persons is probably the most banal you'll find at any CM forum and has been for years.

[DavidRoss]

We're lucky our resident oddballs have such thick skin...

Lucky?  Hmmm.  The bona fide "oddballs" seem more pathological than "thick skinned."  They all share an unquestioned faith in the validity of their laughably uninformed opinions, coupled with complete disdain for the usually far better informed and considered views of others.  Debilitating as that may be for them personally, it is so lamentably common as to merit little if any comment.  However, these "oddballs" also share a propensity to insult those who do not share their beliefs as either "stupid" or "too aesthetically insensitive" to appreciate, say, Debussy's Pelleas et Melisande."  

It is this propensity to overtly insult other members to which some of us object and for which we sometimes call them to account...gently at first, but more pointedly as seems appropriate, depending on the nature, extent, and duration of such behavior.  I don't believe we do them or the community any favors by permitting chronically offensive behavior to go without comment.  And Rod offends not only by both direct and indirect insults, but also by chronic drumbeating for his own pathetic forum.  Sure, most of us feel sorry for him...but compassion demands that we tell him the truth anyway.

[karlhenning]

Oh, does Rod have a forum of his own?

[DavidRoss]

I have noticed that my listening preferences have changed over the last few years.  Whereas before I felt the need to buy recordings of new works by new composers, now I find myself seeking out new performances (some brand new, others historic, or some recommended by a reviewer I have come to trust) of the major works of a handful of composers.

I recently began buying different recordings of Beethoven Piano Sonatas, followed by various recordings of Mozart Piano Concertos.  Now I am onto Mozart Operas.  This thread has gotten me interested in expanding my Beethoven Symphonies beyond the Karajan, Bernstein, Waller and Blomstedt sets I have.

After hearing the Immerseel Mozart PC set, and not being entirely taken with the sound of the fortepiano, I may take a hard look at his Beethoven Symphonies, since the sound of the orchestra in the Mozart was very good.

My path has been much like the one you describe, Franco.  You have much to look forward to in exploring other approaches to Beethoven's symphonies, especially those that take recent scholarship in period performance practice into account and that clean off the crud accumulated through decades of Romantic performance tradition.  If you like the sound of Anima Eterna accompanying Immerseel's Mozart PCs, then you may well prefer not only HIP, but period instrument performances, of which Immerseel/Anima Eterna's recent cycle is a fine example.  (By the way, I felt exactly the same about their Mozart PCs--try as I might, I still don't care for the thin, relatively inexpressive sound of the pianoforte--though I think Immerseel's about as good as it gets!)

My own favorite among period instrument symphony cycles is Brüggen's with The Orchestra of the 18th Century.  In addition to the very saucy sound of the instruments (more characterful than any of the other period instrument cycles--and, yes, I have heard them all, even own most of them), Brüggen's liberal agogic and dynamic interventions are more daring than his colleagues' and more consistent with the approach I believe Beethoven himself actually took when conducting his music.

At the other end of the period instrument spectrum, Gardiner and his equally proficient band are much tamer in sound and more conventional in style, thus offer less radical a change from what you are accustomed to.  But have no doubts, it's still a significant change and I would pick Gardiner's set for the desert island before I would take any of the traditional modern instrument/Romantic performance practice cycles.

There are also a growing number of modern instrument cycles that incorporate some fruits of the HIP movement (such as brisker tempos, smaller ensembles, greater transparency with balances more favorable to the winds, etc.) and which may even include some period instruments, but which take a middle path.  Many of these cycles have received high marks from critics and are often mentioned among GMGers' favorites: Mackerras, Harnoncourt, Zinman, Vänskä, and my own most recent acquisition--rapidly becoming a favorite--Abbado/BP's newly released "Rome" cycle.

Have fun exploring...and be sure to let us know about your discoveries along the way!

[Franco]

Thanks, DavidRoss for your wonderful post.  I have noticed that I find myself agreeing with you on a variety of topics, so your detailed description of the various HIP ensembles is valuable information, imo.

[Coopmv]

Oh, does Rod have a forum of his own?

Do you really care?  He is also not the only forum participant who has the propensity to launch personal attacks on other members.  They all have one thing in common, they are all know-it-all and I have absolutely no use for these despicable individuals ...

[Brian]

Copy-and-pasting this over from the Classical Chat Thread...

BEETHOVEN | Symphony No 7

Did an audition of three recordings tonight. First I did back-to-back movement-by-movement plays of John Eliot Gardiner and [/b]Christopher Hogwood[/b], first playing Gardiner's take on each movement and then Hogwood's. Kind of an interesting experience having everything repeated. Gardiner's performance is with a bigger band in much more "present" sound, but I found that, when I cranked the volume up for Hogwood, it did indeed reveal a more individual, colorfully period-instrument sound. The problem was that I also felt in Hogwood as if there was a rather rustic, rough-and-ready touch: the orchestral details that get highlighted often seem to be accidental, as if the horn player just spontaneously decided to pipe up or the oboes just felt like getting their spunk on for a minute. Gardiner's orchestra is a polished, professional group, no doubt about it. But I think my previous inclination toward Gardiner was not really a product of his life-force really so much as the fact that the recording doesn't require a volume jolt.

Now, however, I've put on a third recording of the Seventh. It is one I have championed here before, but since have gone several months without listening to it. The big question: was it anything as good as I remembered?

The answer is, unequivocally, yes. Thomas Dausgaard's recording with the Swedish Chamber Orchestra is a "HIP Hybrid" - olden stylings on modern instruments. And it is stunning. The funny thing about this recording is that after I listened to it once, back in March, it instantly adopted a mythical status in my brain. Since then I have returned each time with some skepticism, as if it can't be so, or I must have just been in a particular mood. Why the doubt? Not sure. This listen has been just as riveting as the prior ones: music-making that totally bankrupts my ability to throw adjectives at it. It is big, bold, driven, powerful, propulsive, intimate, chamber-like, immediate, it's in my room here with me; it's charming, stern, eternal, mortal, alive, fantastical, earthy, and, if I can use the word again, mythical. That's a soup of contradictions. But this performance is no soup of contradictions.

When I first posted about it here, I used a phrase that may have hinted at what I'm trying and failing spectacularly to say. Here it is: listening to this Dausgaard recording of the Beethoven Seventh, I really feel not merely as if I am listening to this music for the first time - but as if it is being played for the first time.

The timpani is pounding out the big drum rolls in the third movement trio right now. And now the bass' last line before the scherzo explodes back onto the scene - strictly in tempo. This music is alive. Wow.

DISCLAIMER: This was written after midnight, so it may contain fancies and flights of purple prose.

[DavidRoss]

Thanks, Brian, for your impassioned advocacy.  I do enjoy Dausgaard's recording of Sibelius's pieces for violin and orchestra with Tetzlaff.  I will give the 7th a try via Rhapsody and report back if I like it. 

BTW, since some here have already mentioned Schubert, it might not be too far off topic to note that Dausgaard has also recorded Schumann symphonies with what sounds like a smaller ensemble, the Swedish Chamber Orchestra.  Have you by chance heard any of those, and if so do they exhibit the same virtues you praise in relation to his Beethoven 7 recording?

[Brian]

BTW, since some here have already mentioned Schubert, it might not be too far off topic to note that Dausgaard has also recorded Schumann symphonies with what sounds like a smaller ensemble, the Swedish Chamber Orchestra.  Have you by chance heard any of those, and if so do they exhibit the same virtues you praise in relation to his Beethoven 7 recording?

Unfortunately I'm not a big fan of the Schumann symphonies, and as such not qualified to say anything about them.

I can tell you that the Beethoven 1, 2, 3, and 8 are associated in my head with pretty great performances, 5 was pretty good, but for some reason 4 and 6 let me down. Time to listen again, clearly...

I listened on Naxos Music Library  . Maybe this is for another thread, but how's Rhapsody for classicizing? Streaming free?

[DavidRoss]

Unfortunately I'm not a big fan of the Schumann symphonies, and as such not qualified to say anything about them.

I can tell you that the Beethoven 1, 2, 3, and 8 are associated in my head with pretty great performances, 5 was pretty good, but for some reason 4 and 6 let me down. Time to listen again, clearly...

I listened on Naxos Music Library  . Maybe this is for another thread, but how's Rhapsody for classicizing? Streaming free?

Rhapsody's not great quality, but has an enormous catalog of classical music and allows you to stream 25 tracks per month free.  For me it's proven a fine tool for previewing recordings.  BTW, I just listened to the first movement of Dausgaard's Schumann 3rd on Naxos and liked it very much--light and lively, more like Mendelssohn than I'm accustomed to hearing it.

[Elgarian]

Continued my exploration of the Immerseel cycle with the 6th symphony, today.

Of course there was something of an 'expectation' problem. After my baptism-by-fire a few days ago with the 5th, I was expecting the ceiling to fall in at the very least, but on the whole the ceiling remained intact. However, the 'storm' was certainly the most exciting version of the storm movement I've heard. I notice the Gramophone critic describes it as 'a gentler thunderstorm than one normally encounters', but I can't really see why he'd say that. I suppose I haven't heard many versions, but even so this is scary stuff; scarier than Mackerras, that's for sure.

Overall, yes, this is a more enticing version of the 6th than any I've heard, but what worries me a bit is that I seem to be valuing these HIP symphonies most for their punchiest rock and roll moments. When Immerseel goes for it, he really goes for it and I'm there on the touchline cheering him on and waving flags. But I hope my response is going to develop into something less monodimensional than this.

[DavidW]

It sounds like he takes the Toscanini approach of impatiently waiting for the storm.  I don't care for storm-centric performances of the Pastoral symphony.  I want warmth and lyricism from this symphony and not a race to the punchline, because the storm is not the punchline of the symphony.

[ChamberNut]

It sounds like he takes the Toscanini approach of impatiently waiting for the storm.  I don't care for storm-centric performances of the Pastoral symphony.  I want warmth and lyricism from this symphony and not a race to the punchline, because the storm is not the punchline of the symphony.

Totally agree David! 

For me, personally, the heart of this symphony lies in the 1st and 2nd movements.  I enjoy the entire symphony, but it's the first two movements that are the core for me. 

[DavidW]

Totally agree David! 

For me, personally, the heart of this symphony lies in the 1st and 2nd movements.  I enjoy the entire symphony, but it's the first two movements that are the core for me. 

Indeed!