Beethoven Symphonies HIP

[Rod Corkin]

My only warning would be concerning the Hanover Band: they're way too horny! Literally! I haven't heard this Beethoven set, I have to admit that up front, but I've never heard anything they did where the horns at mezzo-forté and louder didn't cloud over everything. I think the value of HIP comes from the increased clarity, but the Hanover Band doesn't sound clear to me at all because of their horns.

A Beethoven symphony without French horns blaring is nothing. A Beethoven Symphony is not about 'clarity', it is music to scare, to shake the very Earth itself!!

[prémont]

the first movment of the Eroica is about 2 minutes too long

Who composed the extra bars of music?

[hornteacher]

A Beethoven symphony without French horns blaring is nothing. A Beethoven Symphony is not about 'clarity', it is music to scare, to shake the very Earth itself!!

I like horny orchestras!  The hornier the better!   

[FideLeo]

That's the only true HIP Rachmaninoff record 

Sorry but I don't think Rachmaninoff recorded these in 1890-1910 or did he? 

Rachmaninoff played very different instruments in Russia (where the pieces in
question, i.e. the suites for two pianos, were composed and first performed)
than what he used later for recording.

[Don]

A Beethoven symphony without French horns blaring is nothing. A Beethoven Symphony is not about 'clarity', it is music to scare, to shake the very Earth itself!!

And music can scare and shake the Earth while retaining clarity.

[karlhenning]

And music can scare and shake the Earth while retaining clarity.

What do you want to scare and shake the boy's platitudes for, anyway? 

[Greta]

HIP Debussy, HIP Rachmaninoff.  I heard these, too, and believed...

HIP Mahler would be very interesting. Does such a thing exist?

[M forever]

Kind of. But not really. Norrington has already attacked 1,2,4, and 5 with the SWR orchestra employing what he calls his "pure tone technique", namely, vibratoless strings. That actually sounds pretty amazing from what I have heard so far. None of his Mahler recordings, but I heard the Tchaikovsky 6 which actually sounds great like that. At least it *sounds* great. The silvery sound and the crystalline clarity he achieves with the SWR strings and the extremely careful tuning and balancing of the winds, especially the brass, results in a very transparent, slender, and very well balanced sound picture and makes for some highly interesting listening. You can hear stuff there, fine detail, motivic interplay, that is rarely heard in performances of this symphony. There is a tendency though to overdo the phrasing in a very classicist rhetorical way which I am not sure is stylistically that well suited to the music.

This is more Sir Roger once again in experimentation mode, using a modern orchestra and postulating a "historically informed" performance practice that I am not sure how "correct" it really is. But as always, he does have some good points at least, and it is mot of the time worth listening to what he does, even though with his experiments, he drives some people totally crazy. Or maybe just because of that.

I will definitely listen to some of his Mahler at some point, but it's not really a high priority for me right now.

There is some late 19th/early 20th century repertoire on "period" instruments, like Wagner, Holst, some Vaughan Williams with the New Queens Hall Orchestra, Sir Roger himself struck at least once in this area with his "period" Wagner album, he also did the Brahms symphonies on "authentic" instruments but I didn't find that so interesting. Especially because he missed the historic chance to have all the horn parts played on natural horn instead of valve horns, as Brahms wished.
But Norrington said that that probably hardly ever happened during Brahms' time, so that's why he decided for valve horns instead. I find that totally lame and he kind of misses his own point there.
Then there are the Bruckner 4 and 7 with Herreweghe and the 1st with Haselböck, all on "period" instruments. And probably some more stuff.

While there is no actual "HIP" Mahler, it must be kept in mind that the Wiener Philharmoniker still basically play on the same kind of instruments that were used when Mahler himself stood in front of their forefathers.
True, the string instruments now all have steel instead of gut strings, and whether or not more or less vibrato was used in Mahler's time, they certainly use much more now. The overall sound of the orchestra has also changed somewhat in the past decades as can be heard on recordings, but mostly, it has become ever more refined and technically assured, like all other orchestras, and in the process maybe more "rounded off", or "polished".
Still, the wind instruments are more or less exactly the same, with the exception of the metal flutes, and so that all comes very close to the sounds that Mahler himself knew. In some cases, it is exactly the same. The Vienna F horns, for instance, are all based on Viennese horn models from around 1890, so when you hear that, you actually listen to a "period" instrument. That is exactly the sound Mahler, Strauss, or Bruckner heard back then.

[Rod Corkin]

And music can scare and shake the Earth while retaining clarity.

True you can have both things, clarity can be enhanced with the greater transparency offered by period instruments, used in smaller numbers than the typical philharmonic. Then remove the vibrato, then divide the violins, and Bob's you uncle. But we need the horns blaring and sharp accents and correct tempo too!

[M forever]

Looks like this thread is in full blabla mode now. A pity, it could have been interesting.

[Harry]

A general notice - what I've heard of the Hanover Band makes it one of the most forgettable ensembles I've ever heard.

Then by all means my friend, you judge on limited knowledge.
For this is one of the best ensembles we have in Europe, and it is highly regarded as such.
But my ears and knowledge could be at fault here of course.......................

[Harry]

I had forgotten about Roy Goodman and the Hannover Band -- most probably because the s/q is really awful for the early recordings.  Thankfully, their later recordings have benefited from improved sonics. 

True, the sonics conception of Nimbus was to blame not the quality of the band.

[Harry]

I'm not sure what is wrong with the Nimbus label, they horribly record solo instruments too, if a piano CD I heard a while ago is typical. Vocal is better, fortunately.

Nimbus believed in not altering the acoustics of a venue, no matter how bad it sounds. If you would go to a live concert in this venue you would hear this acoustic anyway, was their reasoning, and that is the only reason why these recordings are mostly duds.

[M forever]

And the most important factor was that the playing was often as bad as some people say "HIP" ensembles are plus that the musical direction was totally one-dimensional, basically just warmed up "HIP" clichés.
The "Hanover Band" was really just an extra quick gig for all the musicians running around London with period instruments at that time when everybody recorded everything on anything that looked like a "period" instrument. But that actually sold records back then. At least a few.

[Harry]

Could you direct me to a link were I can find these Brahms Symphonies done by Norrington?
I am unable to find them.
Thanks.

[Rod Corkin]

And the most important factor was that the playing was often as bad as some people say "HIP" ensembles are plus that the musical direction was totally one-dimensional, basically just warmed up "HIP" clichés.
The "Hanover Band" was really just an extra quick gig for all the musicians running around London with period instruments at that time when everybody recorded everything on anything that looked like a "period" instrument. But that actually sold records back then. At least a few.

I presume you are excluding yourself from the 'blabla...'. I've been listening to Beethoven to an almost unhealthy degree for 22 years now, I started buying all the usual recordings by Karajan, Bohm and the others, after a while I noticed something was not right with this sound. The truth of this situation dawned on me , but only after I'd bought virtually his complete works performed by these 'traditionalists'. Bit by bit I replaced all this stuff with period instrument versions, and now I have just about everything you can get performed this way and the music sound all the better for it - like having the mud wiped off your Ferrari. What? you don't have a Ferrari...?

If you guys had the balls for a 'music fight' I could present tracks that could easily demolish any equivalent rendition performed by the likes of Furtwangler et al, even for some of them using the Hanover Band!! The best way to expose any weakness in a performance it to play it directly alongside other performances, I have learned this for sure.

[M forever]

Looks like all of them are still available, for instance from amazon.de. But I would also check availability and pricing on amazon.co.uk, the shipping costs are probably more or less the same from Germany or the UK to the Netherlands (I would think).

http://www.amazon.de/Brahms-Symphony-Roger-Norrington-London/dp/B000BR2PVE/ref=sr_1_2/028-0694452-9469351?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1183717179&sr=8-2

http://www.amazon.de/Brahms-Symphony-Roger-Norrington-London/dp/B000BR2PVO/ref=sr_1_12/028-0694452-9469351?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1183717179&sr=8-12

http://www.amazon.de/Brahms-Symphonies-No-3-4/dp/B000BR2PVY/ref=sr_1_5/028-0694452-9469351?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1183717179&sr=8-5

There is also a video cycle with the SWR (on "modern" instruments):
http://www.amazon.de/Brahms-Johannes-Symphonie-Nr-1/dp/B000FMQSU4/ref=sr_11_1/028-0694452-9469351?ie=UTF8&qid=1183717408&sr=11-1

But I haven't watched any of those.

There is also Ein Deutsches Requiem (on "period" instruments):

http://www.amazon.de/Ein-Deutsches-Requiem-Norrington/dp/B00000JJRB/ref=sr_1_1/028-0694452-9469351?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1183717179&sr=8-1

Let me see if I can find the CDs, then I can upload a sample movement.

[Harry]

Thanks for that, pricey they are, and JPC does not list them anymore, so they are not widely available anymore I guess.
Will asap order at least the period one, and think about the modern version.

[M forever]

If you guys had the balls for a 'music fight' I could present tracks that could easily demolish any equivalent rendition performed by the likes of Furtwangler et al, even for some of them using the Hanover Band!! The best way to expose any weakness in a performance it to play it directly alongside other performances, I have learned this for sure.

That's a total nonsensical idea. Comparing somebody like Furtwängler or Karajan or Böhm or Bernstein or whoever to a performance on period instruments or in a completely different style doesn't make sense at all.

There is no "true" or "authentic" Beethoven. Every performance is a proposition of style. Trying to "go back to the roots" is as much a stylistic *decision* as interpreting the music from the point of view of a "later" performance tradition.

In those 22 years, after you spent all that money, you don't seem to have learned anything. You may try to read my post on p.1 to get a better understanding of the complexity of the "HIP" question. Feel free to come back with questions.

In the meantime, let me donate you a few umlauts so you can spell Furtwängler and Böhm properly:

öööööööööööö
ääääääääääää

like having the mud wiped off your Ferrari. What? you don't have a Ferrari...?

How did you come up with *that*?

No, I don't have one. I don't live in Miami.

I drive myself around in this much more practical and also very well crafted vehicle (and yes, that is my actual car, not a trader shot):

[M forever]

Thanks for that, pricey they are, and JPC does not list them anymore, so they are not widely available anymore I guess.
Will asap order at least the period one, and think about the modern version.

Looks like these are Japan imports, and they aren't that expensive in Japan.

http://www.hmv.co.jp/search/index.asp?keyword=brahms+norrington


I found the discs, amazingly. Here is a preview, the first movement of the 4th with Sir Roger N and the LCP:

http://preview.tinyurl.com/29qzkv