Unpopular Opinions

[Florestan]

Propaganda is manipulative literature published by a government or institution to further its goals.

Um, no.

Definition of propaganda

    1
    capitalized :  a congregation of the Roman curia having jurisdiction over missionary territories and related institutions

    2
    :  the spreading of ideas, information, or rumor for the purpose of helping or injuring an institution, a cause, or a person

    3
    :  ideas, facts, or allegations spread deliberately to further one's cause or to damage an opposing cause; also :  a public action having such an effect

Wagner's prose fits in #2 and #3 to a tee.

[ritter]

Um, no.

Wagner's prose fits in #2 and #3 to a tee.

Not really, as far as definition #2 is concerned....Richard Wagner's pesudo-philosophical or political writings (objetiionable--to put it mildly--as they are) did not further the cause of any organisation or institution, only his own. Wagner was clearly averse to belonging to any political party or similar organisation. This, of course, does not apply to his cronies at Bayreuth (particularly after his death), with all the stuff surrounding the völkisch movement, the Bayreuther Blätter and,a bit later on, Houston Stewart Chamberlain (not to mention Winifred--who was born after Wagner's death). And it might be worth pointing out that Bayreuth circle's only (AFAIK) effort to actually get legislation passed in the Reichstag, i.e. a bill to extend the "protection" of Parsifal once the coyright expired in 1913, was a resounding failure (fortunately IMHO).

At the risk of repeating myself, I think people should realize that the concept of "wagnerism" as an artistic movement actually originated mainly in France, starting with Baudelaire, and is essentially cosmopolitan in outlook (as, I daresay, was Wagner himself).

[Florestan]

Not really, as far as definition #2 is concerned....Richard Wagner's pesudo-philosophical or political writings (objetiionable--to put it mildly--as they are) did not further the cause of any organisation or institution, only his own.

Precisely what definition #2 says: the spreading of ideas, information, or rumor for the purpose of helping or injuring an institution, a cause, or a person --- helping his own person (and cause) and injuring other persons (such as Mendelssohn and Meyerbeer). Fitting in to a tee. 

Wagner was clearly averse to belonging to any political party or similar organisation.

That's because he was his own party. 

[Madiel]

Propaganda is manipulative literature

That part of your statement, I can accept. The bit after that, I disagree with as explained by Florestan.

They wouldn't call it "government propaganda" if it had to be from government to meet the definition of propaganda.

[Ken B]

The definition Jeffrey gave is too broad, especially how broadly some of you interpret cause. "Fossil feathers have been found." That statement falls within clause 2.  "Advance ticket sales start tomorrow." So does that.

[ritter]

... and injuring other persons (such as Mendelssohn and Meyerbeer). Fitting in to a tee. 

Well, concerning Meyerbeer, Wagner made some unacceptable comments (aside from the fact that his personal behaviour towards Meyerbeer was quite beyond the pale), but there ar many (me included) who do see some valid artistic points in Wagner's attacks on his senior (attacks that can also be applied to a work like Rienzi, mind you). The idea that Wagner's invectives are tainted by unacceptable (I repeat) anti-semitism does not mean that the works under attack are not among the cheapeast aand hollowest of the operatic repertoire (and yes, I know many of them--from Il crociato in Egitto to Vasco da Gama a.k.a L'Africaine).

In the case of Mendelssohn, we're talking a completely different league, of course.

[bwv 1080]

Domenico Scarlatti was the most lyrical composer of the Baroque era and second only to Bach in the quality of his output

[Ken B]

Domenico Scarlatti was the most lyrical composer of the Baroque era and second only to Bach in the quality of his output

Hard to beat Handel for tunes tbh.

[Karl Henning]

Domenico Scarlatti was the most lyrical composer of the Baroque era and second only to Bach in the quality of his output

The case can be made!

[Jo498]

Hard to beat Handel for tunes tbh.

He stole so many of them that with Handel one probably gets the best of almost a dozen high/late baroque composers (many not that well known, like Keiser).

[Florestan]

Well, concerning Meyerbeer, Wagner made some unacceptable comments (aside from the fact that his personal behaviour towards Meyerbeer was quite beyond the pale), but there ar many (me included) who do see some valid artistic points in Wagner's attacks on his senior (attacks that can also be applied to a work like Rienzi, mind you). The idea that Wagner's invectives are tainted by unacceptable (I repeat) anti-semitism does not mean that the works under attack are not among the cheapeast aand hollowest of the operatic repertoire (and yes, I know many of them--from Il crociato in Egitto to Vasco da Gama a.k.a L'Africaine).

In the case of Mendelssohn, we're talking a completely different league, of course.

But that's exactly the idea behind Wagner's self-serving propaganda: to promote and impose to the exclusion of all others a frame of reference within which Meyerbeer's works can be described precisely as cheap and shallow. He rabidly hated French Grand Opera, ergo it must have been by definition cheap and shallow. Face it honestly, my friend: his musical ideology was simple (better said, simplistic): whatever he liked was good, whatever he disliked was bad and he was unwilling or unable to have it any other way. That Meyerbeer had different goals and operated within a different cultural and social context (one in which Grand Opera was perfectly fine and worthy) seems to have not crossed his mind.

[bwv 1080]

Hard to beat Handel for tunes tbh.

Yes but Scarlatti shredded him in a harpsichord duel

[ritter]

Domenico Scarlatti was the most lyrical composer of the Baroque era and second only to Bach in the quality of his output

Hard to disagree with that...¡y viva España! 

I was revisting some of the keyboard sonatas the other day, and was struck by exactly that, their captivating lyricism.

[Florestan]

Domenico Scarlatti was the most lyrical composer of the Baroque era

Undoubtedly amongst the most lyrical. THE most lyrical? I don't think so. Restricting myself to solo keyboard only, JS Bach, Rameau, Handel, F. Couperin make for a very tough competition --- when played on the piano, that is, which is also valid for Scarlatti himself. When played on the harpsichord, lyrical is the last word that comes to my mind with respect to all of them. And this is my "unpopular opinion" of today. 

[Todd]

[Parsifal]

Face it honestly, my friend: his musical ideology was simple (better said, simplistic): whatever he liked was good, whatever he disliked was bad and he was unwilling or unable to have it any other way.

Sounds like he would fit in here.

It seems to me that most composers that expressed themselves extra-musically routinely excoriated other composers and styles of music. I see nothing unusual the fact that Wagner engaged in this, although the anti-semitic elements of his writings are particularly repugnant. Anti-semitism was part of European culture, although Wagner seems to have gone well beyond merely accepting the prevailing bias of the society in which he lived. But then again, he was a despicable man of low morality and behaved dishonorably even towards people who regarded themselves as their friends.

As to whether Wagner's writings are propaganda, I don't find a semantic argument particularly interesting, but it seems to me that what he was doing was ridiculing his rivals. Propaganda involves deliberate creation of a comprehensive narrative that is mean't to manipulate a target audience. Wagner's pamphleteering was narrower in scope.
   

[Ken B]

True enough of the harpsichords of the era actually.

[Florestan]

It seems to me that most composers that expressed themselves extra-musically routinely excoriated other composers and styles of music.

This might be true, the difference being that none of them except the egomaniac Wagner dreamt about, and actively propagandized for, all other styles of music being forever supplanted by their own.

Anti-semitism was part of European culture

What European culture are you referring to? The one in which Meyerbeer, Offenbach, Henri Herz or Wieniawski were worshipped by their audience? The one in which Ignaz Moscheles, Moritz Moszkowski, Heinrich Wilhelm Ernst or Joseph Joachim were the darlings of both the audience and the press? The one in which Felix Mendelssohn was hailed as a hero in UK and remains to this day a cultural icon of the Victorian Age? The one in which Ferdinand David became concertmaster of the Gewandhaus at the tender age of 25? The one in which Anton Rubinstein founded the Saint Petersburg Conservatory and his brother Nikolai founded the Moscow Conservatory? Or maybe the one in which Benjamin Disraeli was prime-minister of the UK?

[Florestan]

Here is one by this Jonathan Dore commenting on a blog:

The entirety of black commercial pop music (I use that term in its most generic sense to encompass all song-based popular/commercial music), including all of jazz, blues, R&B, funk, hip-hop and everything else, is fundamentally based on the cultural appropriation of the European invention, unique in the history of human music, of diatonic functional harmony. Nothing remotely like it is indigenous to any African, Asian, or New World culture.

Is anyone complaining? Of course not. It's Europe's gift to the world.

[Florestan]

As to whether Wagner's writings are propaganda, I don't find a semantic argument particularly interesting, but it seems to me that what he was doing was ridiculing his rivals. Propaganda involves deliberate creation of a comprehensive narrative that is mean't to manipulate a target audience. Wagner's pamphleteering was narrower in scope.

Quoting a good friend of mine: No hay peor ciego que el que no quiere ver.