Prokofiev vs. Stravinsky

[karlhenning]

Stravinsky was a business man.

And you think that Prokofiev was not?

[karlhenning]

Chout, Le Pas D'Acier, and Prodigal Son I find all at least as interesting as Petroushka.

For me, in the case of Chout, not quite.  But I'll gladly pound the table for Le pas d'acier and L'enfant prodigue.

As for the Firebird? Come on, it's a lot better in its reduced 10 minute version.

No, no, a thousand times no.  I don't want L'oiseau de feu reduced to a suite any more than I want Nutcracker or Le pas d'acier so reduced.

[Don]

I sometimes wonder about the true orientation of people who prefer "experienced" and "mature" (especially women with guns) compared to people who prefer ladies who really do act like they have no masculine bone in their body.

You'll find the answer once you're all grown up.

[greg]

For me, in the case of Chout, not quite.  But I'll gladly pound the table for Le pas d'acier and L'enfant prodigue.

and Chout is my #1 most wanted on my Prokofiev list just because of that!....... 
nah, actually it's because the clips i've heard are mindblowing, i have no idea how you can't like that

[The new erato]

Chout is a superb ballet, funny, melodious and incredibly inventively scored. The Roshdestsvensky on Melodiya is currently available:



Go for it; the suite on Chandos is no substitute at all. Haven't heard the cpo, but these Melodiya recordings really are the real deal!

[greg]

looks yummy

[The new erato]

I see no reasn to chose between them. Both are favorites. Prokofiev usually are more fun, and more adrenalin-inducing (except for Le Sacre); Stravinsky more refreshing and thought-provoking. I need both.

[karlhenning]

and Chout is my #1 most wanted on my Prokofiev list just because of that!....... 
nah, actually it's because the clips i've heard are mindblowing, i have no idea how you can't like that

I didn't say I didn't like it.  Though, to be sure, it does not blow my mind.

But I don't know that it is as compelling a whole as, Le pas d'acier, or Petrushka.

Of course, since you've only heard clips of Chout, you could not observe this 

[karlhenning]

I see no reason to chose between them.

Nor me.

[scottscheule]

I see no reasn to chose between them. Both are favorites. Prokofiev usually are more fun, and more adrenalin-inducing (except for Le Sacre); Stravinsky more refreshing and thought-provoking. I need both.

That's fine, but I believe the premise of the thread was the question, who is greater?  There are only a few possibilities.  One can always call it a tie, but I suspect that's a bit of a cop out.

[Mark G. Simon]

Ferchristssake we're talking about 2 composers who have come out at the top of the heap above thousands of lesser names. To decline a preference between the two is in no way indicative of PC egalitarianism.

[The new erato]

That's fine, but I believe the premise of the thread was the question, who is greater?  There are only a few possibilities.  One can always call it a tie, but I suspect that's a bit of a cop out.

Then it's a copout since I havent' the musical schooling and haven't done the research necessary to have an wellfounded opinion (which I think also applies to most members of this forum). Such an opinion wil have to take in so many factors, their short- and long term influence on others, their contribution to advances in form, structure and technique(s)- that it is beyond me.

I am well qualified to say who I like the best however; and since they satisfies such different listening needs that are equally important to me I think they are equal. I listen to Prokofiev the most however, but since his output is 3 times (or more) that of Stravinsky, that is in itself not enough of a measure.

[karlhenning]

That's fine, but I believe the premise of the thread was the question, who is greater?  There are only a few possibilities.  One can always call it a tie, but I suspect that's a bit of a cop out.

To "break the tie" requires a number of conditions.  One, is that we all agree that there can be a question of one or the other being "greater" — and this in turn requires that we all agree what that means.  It all seems to be clear in the OP's mind, and he is sorely vexed that not all the rest of us see it with that refreshing clarity . . . but he hardly spells things out so that (for instance) I could be sure whether I agree or disagree with him.

There's been this cloud thrown up over "profundity," and it has not, alas, aided me in the question of whether Prokofiev's or Stravinsky's oeuvre could be considered "less profound."

I won't consider the refusal to land at a decision any "cop out," until the question can be spelled out with some neatness.

Until then, I am content to find both profundity, and surface brilliance, in the work of both composers;  and content to find them both giants of music, without much troubling myself over whether one os at all 'greater' than the other.

[karlhenning]

Ferchristssake we're talking about 2 composers who have come out at the top of the heap above thousands of lesser names. To decline a preference between the two is in no way indicative of PC egalitarianism.

Entirely to the point.

[karlhenning]

to me it sort of is Mark, because it really avoids answering the question

James, if you want to cut up rough over people not answering the question, you have only yourself to blame for posing such a vague question, which is not anywhere near as cut-and-dried outside your head, as it seems to be inside.

[Mark G. Simon]

to me it sort of is Mark, because it really avoids answering the question,

"Neither" is a perfectly valid answer.

and it reeks an aura of almost...(gasp) not tolerating such a question as well

Get over it. When the question is framed in terms of "political correctness" then it shouldn't be tolerated.

[Larry Rinkel]

Stravinsky was a business man. Got Balanchine to choreograph all his ballets. I hate the Stravinsky conspiracy.

On the contrary, Balanchine revered Stravinsky and considered his initial association with the composer at the time of Apollo a major turning point in his creative life. Balanchine also chose to choreograph a number of Stravinsky works after the composer's death, at which point Stravinsky could hardly be accused of "getting" Balanchine to do anything.

I don't see much point in this "contest" myself. Stravinsky was probably the more original of the two, but following his early Russian period I find a number of his neo-classical works (like the Octet, Jeu de Cartes, and the Circus Polka) less satisfactory. But then there are amazing things like Oedipus, the Symphony of Psalms, Agon, and the Requiem Canticles. And if "profound" implies an ability to evoke emotions of tragedy, grief, religious exaltation, etc., Stravinsky did hit this kind of experience in the last movement of Psalms (religious feeling) and the Bedlam scene in The Rake's Progress (grief) perhaps above all.

I think Prokofiev was more gifted than Stravinsky as a lyric composer, as in the pas de deux closing Act One of Romeo and Juliet.

[Nick]

Prokofiev had a consistency that Stravinsky did not have. I know and own every single one (except the unpublished Op.88) of his works now, and I know about 2/3 or Stravinsky's works. Not one of those Prokofiev's works is second rate. There are a few things that I think aren't fantastic, but I've never observed such consistency in a composer. I think if you pressed me, I'd say maybe there were six Prokofiev compositions that I didn't think were real masterpieces, but probably less.

As far as originality goes, I've got to lean on the Prokofiev side again. But this is a matter of high opinion.

[Larry Rinkel]

Octet is one of his greatest pieces without a doubt, his best chamber work for sure.

Since I have expressed such "doubt," you can hardly say this point is true "for sure." Unless, of course, your real point is that your exalted perceptions are so much superior to mine, as to discount anything I say completely.

[karlhenning]

Octet is one of his greatest pieces without a doubt, his best chamber work for sure...

Oh, I don't know.  Maybe the Concerto per due pianoforti is his best chamber work.  How would we try the question?

Prokofiev's Romeo & Juliet is thee best from his ballet music without a doubt, in fact one of his greatest achievements period...but I dont think it comes close to what Stravinsky achieved there, or pretty much anywhere in fact

Well, stated like that, as an opinion, there's no arguing with it, of course.  Really, to compare we ought to have a Stravinsky example of a full evening's ballet;  but he didn't write any.  So with Romeo & Juliet (and The Tale of the Stone Flower) we have Prokofiev accomplishments in a category which Stravinsky disregarded (the whole emphasis of ballet in the Russian Seasons being relatively short, showy ballets).