Prokofiev vs. Stravinsky

[karlhenning]

His string quartets too...the 1st destroys the 2nd...and still they as a pair dont reach the depths of others in the genre...

But, his string quartets are more profound than anything Stravinsky wrote for the medium, right?

"The 1st destroys the 2nd" is one of the most curious remarks I've ever read, viz. the Prokofiev string quartets.

[Larry Rinkel]

Well, stated like that, as an opinion, there's no arguing with it, of course.  Really, to compare we ought to have a Stravinsky example of a full evening's ballet;  but he didn't write any.

In fact he wrote nothing longer than about 45 minutes, with the exception of one full-length opera.

[Nick]

I find much of Prokofiev's output very patchy and inconsistent...like the piano sonatas, concerti and symphonies, these are not uniformly great at all...neither is most the ballet stuff IMHO. His string quartets too...the 1st destroys the 2nd...and still they as a pair dont reach the depths of others in the genre...his first violin sonata is very good though, that probably his best chamber work...

If anybody besides James thinks there's a wrong note in Prokofiev's Sonatas 2,6,7,8,9, first two movements of 4 speak up. The fifth is one of the six not masterpiece works, and the 1st and 3rd are very good.

I don't think anybody shares James' opinion about the Prokofiev concertos, unless of course, they haven't heard them.

[karlhenning]

mere duration doesnt really factor into it though does it? What about the music?

The duration, and how well the music carries it, are indeed part of The Music, James.

[The new erato]

Prokofievs symphonies are uneven, his operas are uneven, I'm a fan, but come on! I canæt imagine he's the only composer in history to compose only masterpieces?

[Nick]

Really?

About the symphonies: the only imperfect symphonies I can think of by his are the 7th, which has a little bit of repetitiousness, and maybe the 4th a little bit, which might have a little bit of repetitiousness too. I would also say that the first movement of the 5th symphony is uneven. Other than that, no.

About the operas: the only candidates for uneveness would be perhaps Semyon Kotko, and the last act of Fiery Angel. Oh, maybe to some extent Betrothal in a Monastery might be a debatable point of unevenness. Other than that, I can't see there being anything uneven about the operas. Can you?

[karlhenning]

karl, obviously..but making claims for comparative length is ridiculous...like you did in your last post...

No, James, you are mistaken.  I was not "making claims for comparative length";  I was pointing out the difficulty (on top of other difficulties) of comparing two ballets, one of which runs half an hour, the other of which runs more than two hours.

Imagine if I were to claim that Washington Irving's "The Legend of Sleepy Hollow" is "greater" or "more profound than" Moby-Dick.

[The new erato]

Oh yes. I find Semyon Kotko a distinctly lesser opera than Fiery Angel, the 3rd symphony distinctly underwhelming compared to the 6th, The Stone Flower clearly less impressive than Rome & Juliet, the 1st string quartet less inventive and interesting than the 2nd etc etc...

Are you seriously suggesting that a catalogue in excess of 100 major works isn't variable?

[Nick]

I'm not suggesting that it isn't variable at all. But there's only about six opus numbers among Op.1-135 that aren't all in all really good pieces of music. Perhaps you can name 6?

Semyon Kotko and Betrothal in a Monastery, by the way, are quite good pieces of music in my opinion.

p.s. Alright James, let's see if anyone shares your opinion.

[scottscheule]

Imagine if I were to claim that Washington Irving's "The Legend of Sleepy Hollow" is "greater" or "more profound than" Moby-Dick.

I don't see the problem with such a comparison.

[karlhenning]

yeah but who cares, what about the music my friend, just because one piece is longer than the other doesnt matter at all...

The duration, and how well the music carries it, are indeed part of The Music, James.

[The new erato]

I'm not suggesting that it isn't variable at all. But there's only about six opus numbers among Op.1-135 aren't all in all really good pieces of music. Perhaps you can name 6?

Semyon Kotko and Betrothal in a Monastery, by the way, are quite good pieces of music in my opinion.

There's a difference betwen 130 pieces of good music, and 130 masterpieces. Like most composers he has his share of masterpieces, very good pieces, good pieces and less good pieces.

[Nick]

Hmm, interesting.

You know, I'll be quite honest with you. No amplification here.

Those Opp.1-135 contain about 15 opus numbers that are suites and extractions from previously written music. So that leaves us with about 120 opus numbers to evaluate. I'd say 90/120 are total sure-fire masterpieces, 24/120 are quite good, and 6/120 are just ok.

[The new erato]

Hmm, interesting.

You know, I'll be quite honest with you. No amplification here.

Those Opp.1-135 contain about 15 opus numbers that are suites and extractions from previously written music. So that leaves us with about 120 opus numbers to evaluate. I'd say 90/120 are total sure-fire masterpieces, 24/120 are quite good, and 6/120 are just ok.

Then from the standpoint of eveness of production, a composer writing all crap is more even than Prokofiev. 

I'm not sure, percentagewise, that the distribution is very different for Stravinsky (with a smaller production of course), and Brahms. All three composers very high on my fave list.

[The new erato]

WHATEVER karl. I still believe, that despite comparative duration of one ballet, or work to another is truly immaterial, a non-point/issue for sure...so what if R&J is longer than Rite of Spring, or Apollo, or Agon, or Firebird, or Petrushka, or Les Noces, or Pulcinella, or Orpheus...does not matter at all.

Size only matters when you're comparing your CD collections..........................and other stuff   

[Nick]

This is a point of opinion.

Right now, I've gone through 2/3 of the Stravinsky material, and most of this is clearly the more well known material. For one, it's quite clear that the pieces are a lot shorter and less in number. But also, it seems to be, I don't know, about 1/4-1/3 materpiece, 1/4 pretty good, 1/2 not too good. But I haven't listened to enough Stravinsky yet.

I've also just got to keep in mind that there's SO much less material by Stravinsky versus Prokofiev, particularly when you consider that a lot of Stravinsky's material was taken from other composers and never called Tchaikovsky-Stravinsky or Tchaikovsky (arr. Stravinsky) Fairy's Kiss.

[Nick]

No, size does matter.

I'd be less impressed by Haydn if he composed half those great string quartets or half those great symphonies.

[Larry Rinkel]

WHATEVER karl. I still believe, that despite comparative duration of one ballet, or work to another is truly immaterial, a non-point/issue for sure...so what if R&J is longer than Rite of Spring, or Apollo, or Agon, or Firebird, or Petrushka, or Les Noces, or Pulcinella, or Orpheus...does not matter at all.

It matters because there are challenges in handling large forms that may not be present in shorter works. Of course, duration by the clock is not an absolute indicator of anything: a 25-minute work like Agon is musically very "dense," whereas there are 90-minute symphonies full of filler (no names, of course, to protect the guilty). Still, I think most would agree that there is greater complexity in the opening movement of the Eroica than in any of Beethoven's piano bagatelles.

[Larry Rinkel]

No, size does matter.

I'd be less impressed by Haydn if he composed half those great string quartets or half those great symphonies.

Are you less impressed by Berg and Webern because their output is so small? Why should the sheer number of works matter? Beethoven, Brahms, Stravinsky, and Prokofiev for that matter all composed "fewer" works than earlier composers like Bach, Mozart, and (gasp!) Handel.

[The new erato]

I'd be very interested if you point out the masterpieces and "must hears" beside the usual canon (symphonies, ballets, concertoes, sonatas) - when you mention 90 very good works there must be some stuff I don't know even though I have him quite high on my composer list - and approx. the equal to Bartok, Shostakovich and Stravinsky on mey "early modernist" list.