Recordings That You Are Considering

[kishnevi]

Speaking of Sony box sets, there are two recent ones that a quick search did not yield discussion about. 

[asin]B00896P6F6[/asin]

[asin]B008C3APBQ[/asin]

TREASURES OF CHAMBER MUSIC, VOLS. 1 & 2 (2012)
each vol/box is 10cds; click on Amazon link for zoomable back cover/contents

I couldn't find any printed contents at Amazon or Arkiv, nor any listing at all at Presto.  Just curious if there is enough highly recommendable material to make one or both worth having.  A couple friends have sung praises of the Ax/Stern/Laredo/MA piano quartets, but I haven't heard a thing about any of the rest.

I think all of those recordings are totally unknown to me, except perhaps the Trout Quintet.  I'm more intrigued by the second box, which has more music I'm not familiar with, and a couple of performers that are intriguing.

I suspect this will end up sounding like the grab bag it is, with some hits and some misses;   but intriguing enough that  I've wishlisted it.  Thanks.

[Octave]

Personally, I'm not fond of Karajan's Bruckner. For me, Gunter Wand, Karl Bohm, and many of Chailly's performances have proven to be excellent over a long period of listening and comparing (I went through a huge Bruckner phase in 2009). Gunter Wand, however, came out on top as my preferred Bruckner conductor. He takes a more straight-laced approach to the music which cuts out meandering (a bad tendency in Bruckner conductors) and goes right to the heart of the music. Wand's Cologne Radio Symphony cycle on RCA is one of those desert island sets for me.

Re: Bruckner.  I really like that Wand/Cologne set as well (make sure you are looking at the Sony cheapo white/green box, which is almost always cheaper than than the bulky "jewel case" predecessor, same performances.  You will run across a segment of people---jealous Karajan-lovers, it seems?  some of them have been quite friendly and helpful to me, but I never feel like I'm getting the whole story from them----who are harsh in their deprecation of Wand's way with Bruckner or anything else.  I think these people should probably not be heeded without cuation; you'll be missing a special experience.  I know Jens suggested as much (that the drama and truth in Wand isn't bandied about like a desperate bid for attention, but is in fact everpresent) in an old review he wrote on his Ion Arts blog, which I ran across just several days ago.

But I still stick by my echo of the praise for the Karajan.  These interpretative differences are here to fulfill and not to destroy the score(s).

[Gold Knight]

@ Octave, The only Bruckner Cycle I have is by the Wurttemberg Philharmonic Orchestra conducted by Roberto Paternostro. Are you at all familiar with these readings?

[Octave]

MCU and Jeffrey, thanks for those replies.

@ Octave, The only Bruckner Cycle I have is by the Wurttemberg Philharmonic Orchestra conducted by Roberto Paternostro. Are you at all familiar with these readings?

I don't know that one at all, though I have heard a few complimentary things about it.  I almost bought it when it was ultra-cheap, but I've gotten so much Bruckner in the past ~year, it's entering through my ears and coming out my mouth in the shower.  Could be worse.  You will inevitably hear positive and negative accounts of Jochum's Bruckner (two full-cycle accounts, plus-plus), too, but I wonder if the Wand would be further removed from the Furtwaengler style than is Jochum's and Karajan's?  Maybe that would make it a more interesting point of comparison?  And even though I gave big-ups to the Karajan 70s cycle, it was the Jochum/DG that I listed among my favorite purchases on 2012 (my Brucknerjahr), since it was the one that hit the the hardest and which I returned to the most. 

Yikes, we are already talking about accumulating multiple box sets.  How did we get here?   I'm sorry, GK, I am not the guy to ask anyway.  Um, maybe you should ignore me and try Spotify?  I hope I don't get harshed by the veterans here for suggesting that you probably just can't go wrong with any of these.  If the bug bites, you will find yourself accumulating them all anyway, and fashioning a kind of suit out of them.  Okay, take some long breaths....

[Mirror Image]

Re: Bruckner.  I really like that Wand/Cologne set as well (make sure you are looking at the Sony cheapo white/green box, which is almost always cheaper than than the bulky "jewel case" predecessor, same performances.  You will run across a segment of people---jealous Karajan-lovers, it seems?  some of them have been quite friendly and helpful to me, but I never feel like I'm getting the whole story from them----who are harsh in their deprecation of Wand's way with Bruckner or anything else.  I think these people should probably not be heeded without cuation; you'll be missing a special experience.  I know Jens suggested as much (that the drama and truth in Wand isn't bandied about like a desperate bid for attention, but is in fact everpresent) in an old review he wrote on his Ion Arts blog, which I ran across just several days ago.

But I still stick by my echo of the praise for the Karajan.  These interpretative differences are here to fulfill and not to destroy the score(s).

Personally, I never understood the mentality of the Karajan lovers (no offense to Ilaria of course). I'm not the type that puts a conductor up on a pedestal. They're important but so are the orchestra because without them, the conductor has no job. I've read many Karajan lovers' negative comments about Wand and, quite frankly, their level of stupidity never surprises me. Wand is a conductor who, for me, is closer to the sound I associate with Bruckner. He knows how to keep the line taut but also knows how to drive the orchestra to those huge crescendos. His Brahms, Schumann, and Schubert aren't bad either.

[trung224]

Trying to decide to go for the complete Bruckner Symphony Cycle box-set by Karajan and the Berliner Philharmoniker.
Any thoughts or insights on this?

.  I second your choice. Karajan's Bruckner symphony cycle is IMHO a most consistant boxset in good sound. The interpretation is dramatic but straight but unlike many literal conductors at this time or after that (who also suffer from the unimaginative way)  like Böhm, Wand,Haitink, Chailly, he can create the feeling in the quite passage and the slow movement is to die for.
  If you want the Bruckner alive, spontaneous, Furtwängler or Knappertsbusch (incompleted on Music and Arts) is the excellent choice, and  you can find this quality in Giulini (live performances in BBC Legends) or Tennstedt (live performances in LPO live).
   And alongside Karajan's boxset, you can also buy a cheap Jochum's complete cycle on EMI. Very different, imaginative and dramatic, but sometimes focus too much on details in expense of the moving quality.

@ Octave, The only Bruckner Cycle I have is by the Wurttemberg Philharmonic Orchestra conducted by Roberto Paternostro. Are you at all familiar with these readings?

I have the Paternostro's boxset. It has some wonderful ideas but too much wayward phrasing. Not the excellent way to start with, but for me it offers more quality than so many middle-of-the-road recordings.

Personally, I never understood the mentality of the Karajan lovers (no offense to Ilaria of course). I'm not the type that puts a conductor up on a pedestal. They're important but so are the orchestra because without them, the conductor has no job. I've read many Karajan lovers' negative comments about Wand and, quite frankly, their level of stupidity never surprises me. Wand is a conductor who, for me, is closer to the sound I associate with Bruckner. He knows how to keep the line taut but also knows how to drive the orchestra to those huge crescendos. His Brahms, Schumann, and Schubert aren't bad either.

I think, your opinion about Karajan's and Wand's Bruckner symphonies is mostly because of musical background. Your favorite listening habit is modern, 20th century music, whose quality is anti-Romantic, clear line, favor colors from orchestra and vertical music components, so Wand or Böhm, Chailly is your choice. But for me, and many other listeners, who roots from hearing Romatic era, their interpretation is ordinary, even bland (except some special live performance like Böhm's in the Seventh on Andante or Wand's in live Eighth in Lübeck). Karajan's interpretation is also objective, but he doesn't fall into the dark side of  literal style, and still manages his own interpretation to create more feelings in the slow movement or more dramatic in the outer sections.

[Octave]

Re; BRUCKNER, re: trung's interesting post re: his mention of the EMI Jochum:
FYI, this is available as part of the big EMI ICON box set devoted to Jochum as well, in case that contains anything else you are interested in.  (I have heard from a few different music-obsessed friends with whom I share tastes that the Beethoven cycle w/LSO included in that ICON box is truly great.  This has no doubt already been discussed here, though.  I like the Jochum Bruckner on EMI, too; it was the first of Bruckner's music I ever heard.

[Fafner]

Re; BRUCKNER, re: trung's interesting post re: his mention of the EMI Jochum:
FYI, this is available as part of the big EMI ICON box set devoted to Jochum as well, in case that contains anything else you are interested in.  (I have heard from a few different music-obsessed friends with whom I share tastes that the Beethoven cycle w/LSO included in that ICON box is truly great.  This has no doubt already been discussed here, though.  I like the Jochum Bruckner on EMI, too; it was the first of Bruckner's music I ever heard.

That Jochum Icon set looks quite interesting. I was considering buying either Jochum or Wand Bruckner box set, but I guess I'll rather buy this larger pack.
(But who am I kidding, I know I'll eventually get the Wand as well.  )

[Octave]

I think I can also echo trung's appreciation of Giulini's BBC Legends (?) accounts, though all I have heard among these are a #7 (reddish/pinkish cover) and a #8 (blue cover), both amazing.  I've enjoyed all these so much, and maybe unfortunately so quickly, that it's hard for me to imagine you suffering remorse for getting any one of them.  There's at least one Bruckner Cycles poll and/or discussion thread at the Amazon Classical Forum, which might be of some assistance.  Though even experience and authority probably shouldn't be trusted, because if I listened to and trusted some seasoned Bruckner veterans, I would assume that the EMI Jochum was totally compromised by his "ugly" and "vulgar" pauses, transitions, and shifts in volume and tempo; I can tell you that I hear what these detractors are talking about, I think they are carrying some (published, credentialed, acknowledged) tastemaker's water for him.  I guess the position is legitimate, but it's an impoverished way to describe the aromatic and almost ceremonial intensity of Jochum's approach.  Another detractor called Jochum's DG cycle "Furtwangler lite".  That's sort of funny, but it's possibly the most parsimonious, ill-tempered presentation possible.  It almost seems untruthful, though it's pretty clear that Jochum is working in a vein that Furtwangler developed, at least it sounds like it. 

One Brucknerian, who has been thoughtful and quite friendly to share his experience with me, offered me a shortlist of superlative performances in his opinion, symphony by symphony; THREE of the symphonies, plus maybe Helgoland as well, were given to Barenboim/Berlin.  Yet I never would have imagined that he valued these three (1,5---yes five, over even Horenstein iirc---and 9) so much based on his borderline-pan of the Barenboim/Berlin/Warner collected cycle.  I think my experience with this later B'boim cycle is much stronger than my veteran friend's, and I am glad his critical ambivalence didn't dissuade me from checking it out as a whole.  I haven't even mentioned the large but incomplete Celibidache/Munich set on EMI, reissued recently and rather cheaply, which I guess seems controversial; but I am so glad I didn't avoid that due to the many complaints I heard about it.  It is vast and cosmic and abyssal [please forgive, pretense generator now *off*], plus you get to hear a possibly truly amazing TE DEUM and really good MASS #3.  But I would be dishonest if I didn't also emphasize that lots of people who know Bruckner better than I do hate these later recordings by Celibidache.  I was also really impressed by the #3 and #4 in that cheapo Kubelik GREAT SYMPHONIES box set from Sony, which also includes other fine things, like a top-notch Schumann cycle; I mean, I really really liked those Bruckner two performances, a lot.

I think you could throw darts at ~8 different large sets and probably find a great one no matter where the dart hits.  You will probably end up getting a number of single-symphony discs to fill in the spaces, anyway, once you home in the symphonies you love the most.

I guess I am not quite qualified to go on like this, but an unfortunate obverse to expertise is a "colder" and more discerning ear and frequently a resultant partisanship, and I don't benefit/suffer from these at all.  I am a a conditional partisan of what is derided as "eccentricity" in classical music circles, though I am still afraid to watch any videos of Karajan [even the Verdi REQUIEM done by H-G Clouzot, of all people] and Celibidache.  I love hearing something so alien and marginal somehow working in beautiful concert with what I already know of a piece, in a way that any talk of a "final appeal" to "the" score, to settle all quandaries, itself becomes a marginal consideration, an afterthought.  That is not at all mandatory to me, but it can be terribly, and I also believe justifiably, exciting. 

EDIT/P.S.: I got my Celibidache set for maybe US$35 or less.  I suggest not ponying up whatever I see at a glance now, ~$50, for it unless you have exhausted all other options.

[jlaurson]

That Jochum Icon set looks quite interesting. I was considering buying either Jochum or Wand Bruckner box set, but I guess I'll rather buy this larger pack.
(But who am I kidding, I know I'll eventually get the Wand as well.  )

How are you even going to file the Icon set? Get a dedicated Bruckner set, whichever one... Toni deserves at least that.

For what it's worth, I'd recommend two sets for a start:

G.Wand I and S.Celibidache II.

Karajan is very fine, too... Jochum (I prefer the earlier set by a margin, but it's partially dated sound)

Skrowaczewski is superb. Barenboim I is brash; Barenboim II I don't quite get, except for the 9th, which is stunning.

As different as night and day and magnificent both, in their own ways.

Günter Wand I / Cologne

Günter Wand II / Hamburg (incomplete, not boxed)

Günter Wand III / Berlin (incomplete)

Günter Wand IV / Munich (incomplete, not yet boxed)

Daniel Barenboim I / Chicago

Daniel Barenboim II / Berlin I (another cycle is under way)

Lorin Maazel / BRSO

Herbert von Karajan / Berlin

Eugen Jochum I / BRSO, Berlin

Eugen Jochum II / Dresden

Rozhdestvensky / USSR Ministry of Culture Symphony Orchestra  (OOP, mp3 only)

Celi I / Stuttgart  (incomplete)

Celi II / Munich  (incomplete)

Tintner / Royal Scottish NO

Janowski / Orchestre De La Suisse Romande (not yet finished?)

Skrowaczewski (very! complete and top notch in every way)

Furtwaengler / BPh, WPh (incomplete but best gathering of WF's Bruckner in one place

Schaller / Philharmonie Festiva (special in that it uses the Carragan Editions; 5, 6, 8 yet to be released)

Klemperer / Philharmonia old & new  (incomplete)

Paternostro /  Württemberg Philharmonic Reutlingen

Eichhorn / Linz (oop, Completed 9th)

Haitink I / RCO ("0")

Chailly / RIAS, RCO ("0")

Andreae / VSO (1-9, Te Deum)

Blomstedt / Leipzig Gewandhaus (1-9)

Simone Young / Hamburg Phil (SACD)

Bolton / Mozarteum Orch. S'burg

Solti / Chicago ("0")

Inbal / RSO Frankfurt ("00", "0", all original versions)

D-R. Davies / Linz ("0", all original versions)

Bosch / Aachen ("00", "0", SACD, Completed 9th)

Sinopoli / Dresden (incomplete, Japanese DG import)

[trung224]

to Octave: I really love the Celibidache's EMI set but I don't recommend this set for the newcomer. Bruckner's music focus on horizontal music component, the long line, which make it seems longer than its actual timing. For general people, dealing with 70 or 80 minutes symphonies, is not an easy task, and if they learn Bruckner through late Celibidache, whose performance is slowest (usually slower 20% than usual), they can feel Bruckner music is turgid, ponderous.
  The Kubelik's account on Sony is very good, especially the Third. But his live performance on Audite surpassed his studio recordings and the sound is marginally better. I don't like his Fouth, which is ordinary.
   Jochum and Furtwängler has the same style, but they are very different. Furtwängler used his exceptional musical instinct to push-and-pull, and the result is not only spontaneous but also natural. Jochum (who is Bruckner Society's President) tended to study and research through the score to find out the details and rehearsal them with orchestra, the result is also imaginative and impressive but at certain places becomes fussy.

[springrite]

De Staat by Andriessen, played by the Schoenberg Ensemble. I have no doubt that I want it. Just that the price, at about $33, is not cheap for a little over 30 minutes of music. Then again, it is music that I want.

From what I hear, the new recording coupled with Anais Nin is very bad. So the original is still the one to go.

Karl would approve?


PS: That's for a used copy

[Karl Henning]

De Staat by Andriessen, played by the Schoenberg Ensemble. I have no doubt that I want it. Just that the price, at about $33, is not cheap for a little over 30 minutes of music. Then again, it is music that I want.

From what I hear, the new recording coupled with Anais Nin is very bad. So the original is still the one to go.

Karl would approve?


PS: That's for a used copy

I feel your pain, Paul;  I was in entirely the same dilemma some while, when out of the blue, I checked the listing at Amazon, and found a new copy for $12.

If you consider the mp3 for $9.99, I am happy to scan the liner notes for you and send as a PDF.

[Mirror Image]

      I think, your opinion about Karajan's and Wand's Bruckner symphonies is mostly because of musical background. Your favorite listening habit is modern, 20th century music, whose quality is anti-Romantic, clear line, favor colors from orchestra and vertical music components, so Wand or Böhm, Chailly is your choice. But for me, and many other listeners, who roots from hearing Romatic era, their interpretation is ordinary, even bland (except some special live performance like Böhm's in the Seventh on Andante or Wand's in live Eighth in Lübeck). Karajan's interpretation is also objective, but he doesn't fall into the dark side of  literal style, and still manages his own interpretation to create more feelings in the slow movement or more dramatic in the outer sections.

I don't like Karajan's Bruckner because I've never cared much about his conducting, which is an opinion I don't feel like launching into here. I said I liked some of Chailly's performances. Another Brucknerian I enjoy is Giulini whose performance of the 9th with the Vienna Philharmonic puts most other performances to shame. I certainly don't view Wand or Bohm as 'anti-Romantic' that's a pretty crazy assertion on your part. As for Karajan creating more feelings in the slow movements and drama in the outer movements, that's purely subjective. I hear plenty of beauty and drama in Wand or Bohm or Giulini.

[kishnevi]

Amazon France currently has the Celi/Munich set priced at 33.73 Euros before VAT deduction and shipping charge.  The copy I ordered over New Year's is currently en route; I paid 20.90 Euros sans VAT, so apparently their price has gone up a little bit.  But the current price would still work out to about the price Octave paid for his copy.

This should be the link to Amazon France's page
http://www.amazon.fr/dp/B005HYNCTK/ref=pe_205631_30430471_dp_1

[trung224]

I don't like Karajan's Bruckner because I've never cared much about his conducting, which is an opinion I don't feel like launching into here. I said I liked some of Chailly's performances. Another Brucknerian I enjoy is Giulini whose performance of the 9th with the Vienna Philharmonic puts most other performances to shame. I certainly don't view Wand or Bohm as 'anti-Romantic' that's a pretty crazy assertion on your part. As for Karajan creating more feelings in the slow movements and drama in the outer movements, that's purely subjective. I hear plenty of beauty and drama in Wand or Bohm or Giulini.

Giulini is certain great Brucknerian, but only in the concert (various live performance in BBC Legends, Testament and live Ninth on DG). His studio recordings (the Eight and the Seventh on DG) is very ponderous, boring. I don't say you anti Romantic, but your reaction to other music bases on your favorite music. In the modern music point of view, Wand or Böhm is certain and enough romantic, but as the point of view of a listener like me, who listen mostly in romantic era and from the old school interpretation, their interpretation is ordinary compared to Karajan or Giulini, Matacic, Schuricht, let alone Jochum, Furtwängler, Knappertsbusch,Abendroth and Celibidache.
    And about beauty and drama in Wand's or Böhm's performance, they have, yes but in consensus, they are not up to Karajan's performance. Karajan can be accused for the cold interpretation (in the scherzo or joyous movement in general), but in the dramatic quality and beauty of music, especially in slow movement, he has very few rivals.

  Thread duty:
   Can anyone give me advice, which Messiaen's boxset I should get, DG or EMI ?
[asin]B007CW2FGQ[/asin]
[asin]B001DCQJUO[/asin]
Thank

[jlaurson]

   Can anyone give me advice, which Messiaen's boxset I should get, DG or EMI ?

Thanks

Between those two? DG! Better performances, closer to Messiaen himself, and on average better sound. But just for the orchestral works, I'd still go with this:


O.Messiaen,
The Works for Orchestra
S.Cambreling / South-West RSO Baden-Baden & Freiburg
Hänssler 93225[
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2008/12/best-recordings-of-2008.html

[Mirror Image]

    Giulini is certain great Brucknerian, but only in the concert (various live performance in BBC Legends, Testament and live Ninth on DG). His studio recordings (the Eight and the Seventh on DG) is very ponderous, boring. I don't say you anti Romantic, but your reaction to other music bases on your favorite music. In the modern music point of view, Wand or Böhm is certain and enough romantic, but as the point of view of a listener like me, who listen mostly in romantic era and from the old school interpretation, their interpretation is ordinary compared to Karajan or Giulini, Matacic, Schuricht, let alone Jochum, Furtwängler, Knappertsbusch,Abendroth and Celibidache.
    And about beauty and drama in Wand's or Böhm's performance, they have, yes but in consensus, they are not up to Karajan's performance. Karajan can be accused for the cold interpretation (in the scherzo or joyous movement in general), but in the dramatic quality and beauty of music, especially in slow movement, he has very few rivals.

What you find boring, I find exciting, and vice versa. We'll never agree on Bruckner conductors. Let's just leave it at that. I love the music, which, in the end, that's what matters the most.

[Octave]

Sorry if I have already asked about these; my brain is fzzt fzzt fluid.

[asin]B00030B92K[/asin]
1. Enrico Caruso complete recordings (Naxos Historical, transfers by Ward Marston?) (12cd)
Aside from ghost appearances in movies, I only know Caruso from a single disc in Nimbus' PRIMA VOCE series.  I was addicted to it this past year, so that might be my answer.  Within the bounds of classical music, most "high-low" distinctions have become porous for me; so I don't think I'd be worried about a preponderance of, say, operetta or whatnot.  I haven't done any background work, so I don't have any sense of what Caruso meant to people in his day, or how his legacy has fared among the seriousminded cognoscenti.   Mainly just curious if anyone has lived with this much of the recorded legacy, and if it's worth the investment.  I have heard that Marston's work on this series is exemplary, and I don't think the wheezing, pinched condition of the accompaniment will bother me, based on what I've already heard; I think they add to the otherworldliness of the experience.


3. ARRAU SPIELT LISZT [aka, tagged a bit misleadingly, 'DIE KAVIERKONZERTE] (Eloquence, 6cd)

I think the included Transcendental Etudes are ones that are very famous; I don't know anything about the rest.  All from the 70s?  Curiously seems to be totally unavailable and unlisted on Amazon US, even from MP sellers; 'curiously' because so many of these Eloquence sets are available.

[asin]B005AAVFHW[/asin]
3. J.S. Bach: ENGLISH SUITES & PARTITAS, by Leonhardt (Virgin, 4cd)

Cannot remember the source of the recommendation for these partitas.  I don't think any of these recordings is available in any more-recommendable collections (only constituent Vertias two-fers); but I'd like to know if they are.

[asin]B001HWU3ZC[/asin]
4. Handel: ACIS & GALATEA, by John Butt et al (Linn, 2sacd)
I need to rummage through GMG again, but my searches did not turn up too much in way of specific recommendations, though I remember New Erato praising this work as a good introduction [?] to Handel, and liking Christie's recording in particular (which is tempting, because it can be had in a box with Christie also-supposedly-excellent HIP THEODORA).  I still cannot tell how different Butt/Dunedin's "original 1718" version is from others recorded.  Wasn't there a Dr. Who arch-villain named Dunedin?

[asin]B00006372K[/asin]
5. Schoenberg: CHAMBER SYMPHS 1 & 2 + VERKLAERTE NACHT (Holliger + COE, Apex)

I love these pieces, but was curious how essential this recording was, among others.  I might only own one recording of the two Chamber Symphonies (Craft/Naxos, iirc). 

6. Pierre Hantaï's GOLDBERG VARIATIONS.  Interested in either the Naive or the later Mirare.  The latter seems to be rather expensive for the moment; I know each recording has it partisans, but they both sound like great performances.

7. Does anyone know if there are more Solti box sets forthcoming?  There are things not included in those large sets released last year, but if they're going to be compiled soon, I'd prefer not to buy the individual editions.  The one I am most interested in is the Decca 2cd of R. Strauss orchestral works.

[Daverz]

[asin]B00006372K[/asin]
5. Schoenberg: CHAMBER SYMPHS 1 & 2 + VERKLAERTE NACHT (Holliger + COE, Apex)

I love these pieces, but was curious how essential this recording was, among others.  I might only own one recording of the two Chamber Symphonies (Craft/Naxos, iirc). 

This is the same program as on an Orpheus Chamber Orchestra CD (recorded in Troy Savings Music Hall, IIRC).  I don't know the Holliger recording, but I do find the Orpheus CO recording essential.