Brahms, the works for clarinet, no derp allowed

[Josquin des Prez]

Not sure what happened to the second thread. Mods might have deleted it by accident. Please, lets keep all derpy arguments out of this thread. Its a bit ridiculous that we cannot have a discussion on this subject. I'll copy/paste the reply i was writing for the other thread, just to get things going.

Alright, here's a detailed list of the recordings i've tried so far, and my verdict for each of them. 

1) Clarinet Trio

Amadeus (bad, like all their Brahms).
Kocsis and forgot who else (downright dreadful).
Schiff with the New Vienna Ensemble (also bad).
Portal/Rudy/Pergamenschikow (boring and clumsy).
Carbonare/Dindo/Decimo (not boring but very clumsy).
Borodin Trio/Dubinsky (not a bad recording, but the pianist isn't able to keep up with the rest of the ensemble).
Ax/Stoltzman/Ma (very good technically but somewhat clinical and mechanical. Ax tends to get lost on occasion too).
Beaux Arts Trio (well performed and recorded. Unlike most other recordings here, the pianist actually dominates the ensemble, and Pressler really seems to understand how to bring out all the complexity of his part. The problem is that at times it feels like you are listening to a piano sonata with clarinet and cello accompagnement, the cellist in particular being rather underwhelming in this performance).
Leister/Bognar/Boettcher (very well performed but a bit too deliberate for my taste).
Leister/Borwitzky/Vásáry (the performance is less intense then the previous one but also less deliberate. Can't seem to find a middle ground it seems. The pianist sounds bored on occasion. I think i liked the previous effort better. Much more focused).
Drucker/Brey/Robbins (all around good performance, no real shortcomings that i can ear. Except that its just sort of... unremarkable).
Odeon Trio (this one is actually a great all around recording. Everything is perfect except for one single detail. It has no clarinet! Its pure madness that such an amazing recording had to come with such a severe shortcoming. The humanity).
Florestan (another great performance, and this one is indeed for clarinet too boot. However, as good as it is it pales compared to the Odeon. Its a bit inoffensive compared to it).
Lluna/Tokyo (ha, the great Tokyo quartet, one of the best string ensembles of all times, and how it became quite not so good anymore somewhere around the 80s. The clarinet player and the pianist make a valiant effort but the cellist is often missing in action. Might as well be a sonata for clarinet and piano rather then a trio).
Thea King/Gabrieli (every bit as great as the Odeon, and it does have a clarinet. Alas, the recording quality isn't as good. I mean, its extremely clear, loud and articulated, but there's like this sheen covering everything and making all the instruments blend with each other).

Out of all of those recordings, i kept only the last four, and i usually listen to the Odeon and the King/Gabrieli the most.

2) Clarinet Quintet

Wiener Oktett (all around bland).
Amadeus (a bit better, but still bland. Also the violinist really tries to get on your nerves in this one).
Allegri Quartet/Brymer (dreadful is all i can say).
Juilliard (boring).
Stoltzman/Tokyo (ha the once great Tokyo quartet and... ho the hell. Just avoid this one).
Emerson/David Shifrin (bland recording is bland, with or without the technical proficiency of the Emerson quartet).
Meyer/Alban Berg (ha, the once great Alban Berg quartet. No longer i feel).
Alfred Prinz/Wiener Kammerensemble (one more addition to the parade of bland recordings).
Drucker/Elysium (this one actually starts promising. But nope, still bland).
Eric Hoeprich/London Haydn Quartet (they put a lot of effort into this one, and the result is still bland. Some good detail surfaces at times though).
Orpheus Quartet/Jose Luis (this one is actually not bad, but still somewhat unremarkable).
Daniels/Composers SQ (the saga of undeterred blandness continues)
Lluna/Tokyo (much better then the previous effort, but far from being perfect. Shares some of the problems of the trio. The string quartet plays well but they just lack in energy and intensity. If this was the 70s Tokyo, now we'd be talking. Still, a good all around recording).
Melos/Peyer (ok, NOW we are talking. This one is a great recording. Not a particularly nimble performance but that was never what Melos was about. How good this recording is in the large scheme of things is very hard to tell, considering everything else i listened to pretty much sucks).

Final verdict? Melos wins out by default, with Lluna/Tokyo as a decent alternative.

3) Clarinet Sonatas

Zukerman/Barenboim (yes, its a viola recording, which makes it evil by default. Doesn't help that the performance is actually pretty boring).
Tomter/Andsnes (another evil viola recording. This one is far from being boring though. In fact, its a great recording. Still, it has a viola, i mean, come on).
Portal/Rudy (wake me up when the clarinetist does).
Carbonare/Dindo (wake me up when the pianist does).
Cohler/Hodgkinson (this one is pretty much messy all around).
Drucker/Hambro (not that great a recording either).
Leister, both recordings (tries once, and fails. Tries again, and still fails. I mean, seriously).
Pieterson/Menuhin (this one is a very good recording, but i still think it has a lot of room for improvent).

And that's it. Pieterson/Menuhin and Tomter/Andsnes win by default for being the only two good recordings of these work that came under my possession.

And that's that i guess. By all means, hit me with everything you got. I will not rest until i found the perfect recording for each of those compositions.

[DavidW]

Good survey.

I agree with your comments regarding BAT, Florestan, and Melos/Peyer.  I'm not that well versed in the clarinet sonatas.  I wonder if Frost has recorded them?

[Karl Henning]

Imai and Goldsmith are very good in the [viola] sonatas.  Leister plays nicely enough indeed in the recording I listened to to-day, but overall the sonatas sound like they were mic'ed inside the piano.

Yuri Bashmet plays an arrangement of the Op.115 for viola and string orchestra . . . they play it surpassing well, but I am less sure that I like the Quintet adapted to viola (all string tones), than I do the taken-over clarinet sonatas . . . .

[Sergeant Rock]

2) Clarinet Quintet....bland...still bland....boring...avoid this one...bland...parade of bland...still bland....still bland....unremarkable...blandness continues....far from being perfect....everything else i listened to pretty much sucks...

I have to say, you're a critical genius, Prez.

Sarge

P.S. I suggest you listen to...no wait, they're bland too. Sorry.

[Josquin des Prez]

Yuri Bashmet plays an arrangement of the Op.115 for viola and string orchestra . . . they play it surpassing well, but I am less sure that I like the Quintet adapted to viola (all string tones), than I do the taken-over clarinet sonatas . . . .

Personally, i never quite liked arrangements of chamber pieces for larger ensembles. Just a pet peeve of mine. For instance, i have an arrangement of the first clarinet sonata for orchestra, conducted by Luciano Berio, no less, but i rarely listen to it.

And jokes aside, i do like those viola transcriptions. One of the thing that makes those sonatas so interesting, beyond the inherent greatness of the music, is precisely that they were written for an usual combination of instruments. Those viola transcriptions also work very well for the same reason (albeit i still prefer the clarinet). I'd be a lot less partial to those transcriptions if they were written for violin instead.

[Josquin des Prez]

I have to say, you're a critical genius, Prez.

Sarge

P.S. I suggest you listen to...no wait, they're bland too. Sorry.

I said no derping. If you disagree with my evaluation of some of those recordings just say so, but in the spirit of objectivity.

[Scion7]

it was moved to the Brahms Chamber Music thread

"Amadeus (bad, like all their Brahms). " - sigh 

[Josquin des Prez]

Sorry, that was a bit careless from my part. What i should have said is that i neverheard a single performance by the Amadeus quartet that i actually liked, like, ever. This doesn't mean there aren't any good ones, i just haven't come across one as of yet. I also have a death wish imposed upon the first violinist, but that's another issue altogether.

[Scion7]

What you MEAN to say is, they are not to your personal taste.  That's fine, there are great performances that I don't care for, personally, either.
It's when you make absolute statements that people are going to come out of the woodwork and, to use your term, "derp" on you (whatever that is.)

The Leister/Amadeus recording on DG from the Sixties is awesome.

[Drasko]

2) Clarinet Quintet

Melos/Peyer (ok, NOW we are talking. This one is a great recording. Not a particularly nimble performance but that was never what Melos was about. How good this recording is in the large scheme of things is very hard to tell, considering everything else i listened to pretty much sucks).

I'd actually agree with this. Gervase de Peyer/Melos Ensemble is perhaps not the most polished but it is wonderfully expressive performance and I like it a lot. Stick with it.

You could also try Charles Draper/Lener Quartet and David Glazer/Hungarian Quartet. Both very fine but I doubt you'll prefer them to Peyer/Melos.

Avoid Schatzberger/Fitzwilliam Quartet. She plays replica of Muhlfeld's Ottensteiner clarinet and she plays well but Fitzwilliams are really tedious.

BBC radio 3 did a survey of Quintet some time ago their first pick was some left field live recording on Wigmore Hall label, can't recall by who right now.

If you liked de Peyer in the Quintet why not try him in the Sonatas with Barenboim (and then tell me are they any good).

[Leon]

I like Thea King with the Gabrieli Quartet and the Trio is nice as well:

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[Brian]

I found Prazak Quartet and Moragues for a first recording and haven't attempted to find another; Moragues has a full, fruity tone and the Prazaks have their customary tonal splendor. It's a sort of relaxed, plush account but that was the approach I wanted.

[kishnevi]

Josquin--this seems to be missing out of your listing for the Sonatas
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Given all your comment about other recordings,  I'm not going to say you should get it (I'm not really sure what would or would not appeal to you), but I do think it's worth sampling at least.

I don't have too many recordings of the Quintet or Trio--I like the Lluna/Tokyo recordings, and I'm always ready to like the Emerson SQ, but I remember liking their Mozart Quintet (with which they couple the Brahms) better--and I don't remember anything good or bad about the Amadeus performance--so perhaps your favorite adjective (bland) might apply here.

[Polednice]

I'm glad you think the viola versions are evil. :p

For the clarinet sonatas, I'd heartily recommend Martin Frost (on clarinet!!) and Roland Pontinen, on the BIS label. The disc also comes with the Trio, Thedeen on cello, though I haven't paid that as much attention.

[Leon]

Josquin--this seems to be missing out of your listing for the Sonatas
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I agree this is a good recording of the clarinet sonatas, and the two discs of the trios are also very good; this one has the clarinet trio.

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[Karl Henning]

For the clarinet sonatas, I'd heartily recommend Martin Frost (on clarinet!!) and Roland Pontinen, on the BIS label. The disc also comes with the Trio, Thedeen on cello, though I haven't paid that as much attention.

The samples sound excellent (and I have Fröst's fabulous recording of the Nielsen & Aho concerti).

Must be an error on Amazon, they list that BIS recording for $51.79.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Leister, both recordings (tries once, and fails. Tries again, and still fails. I mean, seriously).

What do you mean "both recordings"? Leister's recorded the sonatas at least THREE times.

If you're aiming to be taken seriously as a "critic's critic" at least have the facts straight first.

That said, I've heard Leister's recording on Nimbus w/ Bognár but found that the sound ruined the performance for me.

Fortunately there are no misgivings about Leister's recording on Orfeo w/Oppitz which I find inimitable. One of the greatest recordings of these works I've heard.

[Scion7]

The samples sound excellent (and I have Fröst's fabulous recording of the Nielsen & Aho concerti).

Must be an error on Amazon, they list that BIS recording for $51.79.

Many of the BIS are now OOP and go for the bigger doll'ahs.  Martin Frost is an excellent player - I have that Nielsen recording, too.

[Brian]

Martin Frost is an excellent player - I have that Nielsen recording, too.

Martin Frost is extraordinary; I would listen to him play anything, provided it was on a clarinet.

[Josquin des Prez]

Just keep the flow or recommendations coming. I'm in the process of acquiring or sampling some of those recordings. Will post impressions once i get my hands on them.