Holst's The Planets

[Peter Power Pop]

Question for you, I am curious what if any performances of planets you have heard live and how you rank those? ...

None I'm afraid. The combination of living in South Australia (I don't know if there have ever been any performances of The Planets here in Adelaide) and being housebound since 1987 (Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and Fibromyalgia) has put a dampener on any live-Planets-related escapades. But at least I can hear it on CD.

... I have heard Dutoit play it with the San Francisco Symphony plus a few other orchestras including my university orchestra and seeing it is interesting because you feel and see the percussion in action in Uranus. ...

I would love to attend a performance of The Planets. The thrill of having your hair blow back when the brass lets rip, the sheer physical feeling of having your entire body shake when the organ cranks up... Yes please.

... Sort of like how seeing the orchestra play the most intense moments of Rite of Spring makes one hear it differently.

The thing that bugs me about the timpani in Dutoit/Mars (just that one moment) is it was a studio recording so they could have easily fixed it (or that's the best take) and it is jarring for me because this movement is a freaking rhythmic ostinato! ...

Yep. Ever since studio editing became available, I've been puzzled why some horrendous and can't-miss-'em mistakes have been allowed to stay in recordings, there for all perpetuity as an unhelpful (and permanent) reminder of an "Oops" moment from a musician. When mistakes are there (in the post-editing era), I wonder why they were left in. Didn't anyone associated with the recording notice them? I especially wonder about conductors, who are theoretically at the helm of everything. Aren't they all eagle-eared, and can spot a mistake a kilometre away? ("You. Yes, you, triangle player. When the full orchestra played fff, I heard your ppp tap on the triangle a millisecond late. That will not do, triangle player. You're fired.") And what about the producers and engineers. Don't they scrutinise every aspect of the recording to make sure they have the best performance possible?

... If something plays against the rhythm, it is problematic.  It was only for 2 seconds but still.  That is why in my edit, I actually used a different recording for that one section because the rest of dutoit/mars is so damn intense.  I will check out the Rattle/Philharmonia/Uranus in a few minutes.  It sounds like you have good dramatic instincts but it is a different story you are telling.  Maybe one day, if I have time, I will do a revision of Uranus following your approach to show you the result.  It would be interesting to use that material but adapt it dramatically and see how it fits.

Please don't go to any extra effort on my account. There's an extremely large chance that, after months of you toiling away, I'll have a quick look at what you've done and say, "That's nice."

EDIT (after hearing Rattle/Philharmonia/Uranus): Do you know if this was a live recording? ...

Nope. According to the CD booklet:

"Recorded in Kingsway Hall, London, 29 & 30 December 1980."

... I know I can be picky but poor brass entrance.  This is definitely an exciting version.  Not the greatest technically (a few other very minor flubs).  Wow – big organ. ...

The thing I like most about Simon's 1981 recording is its enthusiasm. It's everything that his 2006 remake with the Berliners isn't.

... By the way, when I played it, I was the bass trombone so I had that low E at the end.  VERY big moment!  So I have a personal connection.  One thing I must confess is that through our discussion, I tended to slightly dismiss Uranus as too Technicolor and preferring how evocative Saturn and Neptune were.  But what I have come to realize is Uranus plays a pivotal role in the grand scheme of the work as a whole.   It is sort of like how Beethoven transitioned in Symphony No. 5 from the scherzo to the finale.

So what was it about Rattle '81 that made you get the movement?  I felt others did it better justice.

What spoke to me in Simon's 1981 recording of "Uranus" was something as simple as being able to hear clearly all the pp stuff The Holster had written. Because I could hear it, I finally understood how it fit in with Gusto's conception of the movement. In other words, thanks to Simon, the last half of "Uranus" made sense.

[Peter Power Pop]

Epic task.  Well done PPP.   

Thanks, brunumb. It was enormous fun.

I didn't have the Dutoit or the Ozawa but based on your reviews I ordered them both from Amazon UK.  They were incredibly cheap, so no great risk involved. ...

Excellent. Most of my CDs were bought on eBay for between AUS$4.50 and AUS$12 each. (The Ozawa was AUS$9. I already had the Dutoit.) The dearest ones were the most recent: I bought two discs yesterday on Amazon.co.uk. They're both by Sir Malcolm Sargent (his BBC Symphony Orchestra recordings: 1958 studio, and 1965 live). The total came to AUS$28.

Now, because there are three more recordings out there that I haven't heard (they're at the end of The List on the blog, and that live Sargent recording is one of them), I don't feel the list is complete. For me, it will be once I've heard every Planets recording that has ever been released on CD.

... I have a nagging feeling that I bought the Dutoit ages ago and got rid of it because I didn't like it. ...

That's entirely possible. With me, though, and on more than one occasion, I've bought a CD, wait for it to arrive, then go to the letterbox all excited, open the package, and then say: "Hey, I already have that CD."

... It will be interesting to see what difference a few decades can make.

Yes indeed.

[vandermolen]

Errr, Hurst. On CD? 

LP only I fear.

[Christo]

Epic task.  Well done PPP.   

Fully seconded, great job! I can now conclude that I'm the happy owner of Nos. 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 11, 12, 17, 19, 23, 31, 32, 35, 36, 44, 45, 51, 55, 58, 64, 70, in your ranking. Plus the Sargent BBC Radio live (1965) that you're still waiting for. And of course Planets for synthesizer (Rick Wakeman c.s. really horrible ) and the two-pianos version.

My own test has always been: try Saturn first, my favourite movement, and if that's okay I'll finish with a hopefully boisterous Uranus and mystic Neptune. This triptych is my personal highlight, a three-part 'symphony' on its own. If they really warmed me, I'll try the first four - a more classical symphony, with Venus as the slow movement and Neptune as a scherzo - as well.

BTW, my Decca Solti 1979 (No. 44 in your list) is with the London Philharmonic and 'ladies of the London PO'), not the LSO. I now see in your review that's indeed the LPO.

[aukhawk]

Yep. Ever since studio editing became available, I've been puzzled why some horrendous and can't-miss-'em mistakes have been allowed to stay in recordings, there for all perpetuity as an unhelpful (and permanent) reminder of an "Oops" moment from a musician. When mistakes are there (in the post-editing era), I wonder why they were left in. Didn't anyone associated with the recording notice them? I especially wonder about conductors, who are theoretically at the helm of everything. Aren't they all eagle-eared, and can spot a mistake a kilometre away?

That's really the producer's job, I think.  One explanation for this is time snd money - orchestras are expensive things and traditionally orchestral musicians are great clock-watchers or should I say, belong to strong unions.  But also, I think musicians are very performance-oriented, and prefer to turn a blind ear to mistakes which in the concert perfomance situation, would be easy to overlook.

Two great books which I expect you already know but which illustrate these things - the classic Ring Resounding by John Culshaw, essential reading, very much concerns itself with time pressures in recording sessions (and to a lesser extent, with highly strung musical personalities) - and the Cambridge Companion to Recorded Music which is a compilation of thought-provoking essays, has a lot to say about the musician's love-hate relationship with the recording process and the unreasonable requirement for 'perfection'.

[Christo]

LP only I fear.

Many thanks! I asked, because PPP was looking in vain for a CD incarnation, see his review:

As far as I'm aware, this version by George Hurst and the Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra was released on vinyl in 1974 and then disappeared without a trace. I don't know why, because Georgeous George's version presses all the right buttons for me.  (....)
I want to buy this version of The Planets so bad, but I can't find it on CD anywhere. I found it on Spotify (see above), where it's the first half of an album called Gustav Holst: The Planets And Other Unearthly Music. Was it ever released on CD?

[aukhawk]

Gustav Holst: The Planets And Other Unearthly Music. (Hurst BPO)

Amazon (UK) has that for download, but not as CD.  Search on 'holst planets unearthly".

[Mirror Image]

You've got to admire Peter's dedication to The Planets. I haven't read every review he's posted, but I read a few of them and all of have been very good. My favorite Planets, however, is still Bernstein's with Boult's later performance on EMI coming in a close second place.

[relm1]

Yep. Ever since studio editing became available, I've been puzzled why some horrendous and can't-miss-'em mistakes have been allowed to stay in recordings, there for all perpetuity as an unhelpful (and permanent) reminder of an "Oops" moment from a musician. When mistakes are there (in the post-editing era), I wonder why they were left in. Didn't anyone associated with the recording notice them? I especially wonder about conductors, who are theoretically at the helm of everything. Aren't they all eagle-eared, and can spot a mistake a kilometre away? ("You. Yes, you, triangle player. When the full orchestra played fff, I heard your ppp tap on the triangle a millisecond late. That will not do, triangle player. You're fired.") And what about the producers and engineers. Don't they scrutinise every aspect of the recording to make sure they have the best performance possible?

I went to see Mahler's Symphony No. 6 in concert yesterday.  One thing that I realized is how much people listen during contrasts like just before the ending when the music pulls down to the extreme quiet.  The last notes are the quietest in the entire 80 minute work.  Total quiet with just one long note held forever...then all of a sudden the biggest smack from the terrifying final blows never fails to make me jump.  Sometimes when my conductor thinks we aren't listening to him or each other he whispers rather than yell because that makes us listen more closely.   It just made me think at the end of Uranus that Holst was probably going for something like that.  With Dutoit level super quiet really drawing us in to deeper listening so when the final smack on the head happens it packs an even more powerful punch...great writing from Holst!

Regarding the discussion of studio recordings and why noticeable errors aren't fixed, yes the cost and time pressures are in conflict with quality and artistry.  So judgements are made and sometimes they hope these issues can be fixed in post production (sort of like using photoshop to cover blemishes on a model - the end result is so much photoshop that it because a false ideal).  I am sure the conductor noticed but probably hoped the post process could address it rather than getting 100 piece orchestra and studio time to redo that one passage because otherwise you'll have hundreds of microedits.  I also believe there is a judgement to be made between technical and musical quality.  Of course when these elements are merged is best but sometimes the more musical performance is less technically polished and a judgement of which gets used opening up the recording to scrutiny either way.  I think we are in a stage where technical quality outweighs the musical quality.  So you get extensive edits to address issues but the grand scheme of the work is sometimes lost.  For example, I find the Michael Tilson Thomas Mahler recordings to be technically very strong but they are extremely edited.  You lose the sense of an occasion you had with the 1980's Bernstein or Tennstedt - those great conductors who had exceptional large scale control, vision and execution but might have let slip in a performance problem from time to time because the execution was just so good.  Perfect example of this is Mahler's 1960's cycle with Bernstein/NYPhil which is a way better interpretation than the 1980's DG but was less polished and controlled (youthful exuberance in abundance). 

I agree with you that no single recording of Holst's masterwork is perfect which means there will be more recordings aiming to add or address something.  So I predict we will all be discussing your list of 160 recordings of the Planets in ten years from now.

Sorry to hear of your health issues and hope you attend a performance sometime.  I know the musicianship in Australia is very strong and you might make it out to attend a university performance of Planets at least.

[vandermolen]

Many thanks! I asked, because PPP was looking in vain for a CD incarnation, see his review:

Yes, he is right. Saturn is by far my favourite movement too.

PS the CFP James Loughran version is very good too and is available on CD.

[Mirror Image]

Yes, he is right. Saturn is by far my favourite movement too.

+1 Absolutely haunting movement.

[Sergeant Rock]

My Planets:

5. HOLST           LSO
12. BERNSTEIN  NEW YORK
32. BOULT (79)  LPO
36. KARAJAN      VIENNA PHIL
37. RATTLE        PHILHARMONIA
42. PREVIN        RPO
43. STEINBERG  BOSTON
50. GARDINER   PHILHARMONIA
58. MEHTA         NEW YORK
70. MAAZEL        O NAT FRANCE
76. HERRMANN   LSO

Apparently I chose unwisely, mostly 

Sarge

[aukhawk]

Oh I dunno, you could have done worse - David Owen Norris for BBC's Building a Library chose Järvi - No.40 in the list - and also liked Norrington (69) Colin Davis (75) and Herrmann.
(As well as, to be fair, Dutoit, Elder and Stokowski.)

[Pat B]

My inventory, by Peter's ranking.

1 Dutoit
6 Goodman
30 Boult 1967
32 Boult 1978
36 Karajan 1961
50 Gardiner
59 Y-P. Tortelier

And have heard a few others.

My own ranking would move both Boults (and maybe Tortelier) up, Dutoit and Goodman down. For years Boult 1978 was my only recording, but if pressed for a current favorite I'd say his 1967.

I have 3 more in the Pile or on order:
2 Ozawa
34 Elder 1998
43 Steinberg

I probably wouldn't have considered Ozawa but for Peter's enthusiasm -- I listened skeptically to samples and it sounded fantastic. Elder was also Peter-inspired (from his description, not his ranking); also I wanted to hear a live recording, and this one was much cheaper at the time than the Jurowski. Steinberg seems surprisingly polarizing; I'm not sure I'll like it, but I got the version coupled with Ligeti's Lux Aeterna, which I wanted anyway.

There are a couple others I want, but I'm hoping to keep my collection from getting totally out of hand (recognizing that at 10 recordings, it is already mildly out of hand).

[Moonfish]

Hmm, I wonder if Peter dreams about the Planets at night (and during the day) after this long inspiring (exhausting?) journey through Holstian space...?

What's next?       

[Sergeant Rock]

I probably wouldn't have considered Ozawa but for Peter's enthusiasm

Ozawa's is the one that grabbed me too from 3P's reviews. The German Amazon marketplace has quite a few copies, cheap. But do I really need another Planets? There's the rub.

Sarge

[Christo]

Perhaps this CD - Yutaka Sado conducting the NHK SO -  was overlooked? (Or I missed a good reason not to include it):

[Moonfish]

Ozawa's is the one that grabbed me too from 3P's reviews. The German Amazon marketplace has quite a few copies, cheap. But do I really need another Planets? There's the rub.

Sarge

Did Ozawa just record it once with the Boston SO? When I listened to it back in December it did not do much for me...
This is truly a subjective realm!!

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,21492.msg857580.html#msg857580
Is this the same recording?
[asin] B0009N2VDM[/asin]

The Philips recording can be found in the recent Ozawa compilation:
[asin] B00MG8V7MY[/asin]

[Mirror Image]

What's next?       

Stravinsky's Le sacre du printemps?

[TheGSMoeller]

What's next?       

Bruckner 6th? No, seriously, I have about 10 new recordings since the BC.