What was the first symphony to feature the tam-tam?

[techniquest]

I know that the tam tam was used in operas by both Rossini and Wagner, but as far as I can glean from my own musical knowledge (very limited) and my CD collection, the first appearance in a Symphony would be Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony of 1885, closely followed by Mahler's 1st in 1887. I'd be very interested to know of earlier symphonies which feature this instrument.

[pjme]

From wikipedia:

The tam-tam was first introduced into a western orchestra by François Joseph Gossec in the funeral march composed at the death of Mirabeau in 1791. Gaspare Spontini used it in La Vestale (1807), in the finale of Act II, an impressive scene in which the high pontiff pronounces the anathema on the faithless vestal. It was also used in the funeral music played when the remains of Napoleon were brought back to France in 1840. Meyerbeer made use of the instrument in the scene of the resurrection of the three nuns in Robert le diable

Maybe composers like Rameau or Lully used gongs or tamtams purely as an "effect" ( cfr. thundersheet/ noise to evoke terror, fear, drama...) in their operas.

P.

[techniquest]

Yes, I was aware that the tam-tam had been used in operatic and incidental music, but I'm interested to find its' first use in a Symphony. So far I haven't found anything further back in history than Tchaikovsky's Manfred symphony.

[eyeresist]

Liszt's 1857 Dante symphony includes a gong. Some argument as to whether it's a true symphony, though.

[snyprrr]

tam tam

Is it a gong, a cymbal,... ay ay... WHAT is the English word? show me a pic!

[pjme]

Gongs can be tuned and come in different sizes

and read at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gong



The tamtam comes only in different sizes

[eyeresist]

Gongs produce two distinct types of sound. A gong with a substantially flat surface vibrates in multiple modes, giving a "crash" rather than a tuned note. This category of gong is sometimes called a tam-tam to distinguish it from the bossed gongs that give a tuned note. ... Suspended gongs are played with beaters and are of two main types: flat faced discs either with or without a turned edge, and gongs with a raised center boss. In general, the larger the gong, the larger and softer the beater. In Western symphonic music the flat faced gongs are generally referred to as tam-tams to distinguish them from their bossed counterparts, although the term "gong" is correct to use for either type.

I think for our purposes the terms are interchangable.

[mszczuj]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grande_symphonie_fun%C3%A8bre_et_triomphale#Instrumentation

[eyeresist]

^ Yes, I was wondering about Berlioz, but didn't know enough about him to say anything useful.

[techniquest]

^ There seem to be rather a lot of 'optional' items in the instrumentation for this Berlioz piece. Does anyone know of a recording that includes all the optional instruments?

[mszczuj]

I'm not sure it is really the first tam-tam symphony, it is just first I have found so far.

[eyeresist]

Presumably in the bowels of a music conservatory library is a book on the history of the gong with just the answer you seek....

[snyprrr]

Gongs can be tuned and come in different sizes

and read at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gong



The tamtam comes only in different sizes

thanks