21st century classical music

[San Antone]

Using gestural writing in a non-organic manner sounds awfully close to 'moment form.............'

(which I believe has its place in history!)


((((it's a pretty awful form imo))))

If I were to describe Morton Feldman's approach it would be isolated gestures strung together in an intuitive reactionary method.  The idea that there must be an overall large form compositional plan is an old idea, in fact, the oldest idea.  It is taught in the academy, but is not, imo, necessarily the only legitimate way to write serious classical music.

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

If I were to describe Morton Feldman's approach it would be isolated gestures strung together in an intuitive reactionary method.  The idea that there must be an overall large form compositional plan is an old idea, in fact, the oldest idea.  It is taught in the academy, but is not, imo, necessarily the only legitimate way to write serious classical music.

This is true, and what I wrote about moment form was probably only my disdain for composing in moment form as described by Stockhausen rather than Feldman. Feldman's approach makes sense to me tha way you have described it, because I think Stockhausen was actively trying to work against any sense of making the music seem 'intuitive'.......... but idk for sure

[You did it]

((((it's a pretty awful form imo))))

*Runs and hides
*Rents a new house in the other side of the world
*Continuously tells self he didn't hear that
*Buy's a yacht
(°◇°)

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

*Runs and hides
*Rents a new house in the other side of the world
*Continuously tells self he didn't hear that
*Buy's a yacht
(°◇°)

IT WAS A GOOD IDEA AT THE TIME!!!!! Reinventing form in post-war Europe, the whole concept of moment form and the exploration and ideas explored in composition makes complete sense really. I just think that reworking things that already exist or finding other, new ways of looking at older ideas in form tend to work better in a composition that spans a longer time period. I like Birtwistle's approach to form where he uses thematic ideas but in a non-conventional kind of way that still retains a coherency over a longer time period. Also his early approach—splitting a passage of music up arbitrarily and then composing extensive bridge passages between each segment of the original—works well as a way to map out a longer piece without falling back on old forms.

[San Antone]

But don't you sometimes question the assumption that long forms are necessary?  The long form seems like a hold over from the 19th century symphony.   Two major voices from the 20th century avoided the pitfall of the long form in drastically different ways, but each made an important statement on the formal problem: Webern and Feldman.

Webern would make one statement of his idea and stop, his works might last 40 seconds.  Feldman got to the point of writing works of several hours in length which might consist of permutations of the same gesture for long periods of time.

One of the most adroit criticisms of Schoenberg, imo, was his desire to pour 12-tone music into old forms.  To some degree many new composers are still doing the same thing.

[You did it]

IT WAS A GOOD IDEA AT THE TIME!!!!! Reinventing form in post-war Europe, the whole concept of moment form and the exploration and ideas explored in composition makes complete sense really. I just think that reworking things that already exist or finding other, new ways of looking at older ideas in form tend to work better in a composition that spans a longer time period. I like Birtwistle's approach to form where he uses thematic ideas but in a non-conventional kind of way that still retains a coherency over a longer time period. Also his early approach—splitting a passage of music up arbitrarily and then composing extensive bridge passages between each segment of the original—works well as a way to map out a longer piece without falling back on old forms.

Depends the context I think, but I find it can be a very effective form.

The over-arching way that the piece deals with the segments is probably the greater factor than the fragments (in their smaller components) themselves, I guess this is one of the things Crudblud was highlighting earlier (though about something else).

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

But don't you sometimes question the assumption that long forms are necessary?  The long form seems like a hold over from the 19th century symphony.   Two major voices from the 20th century avoided the pitfall of the long form in drastically different ways, but each made an important statement on the formal problem: Webern and Feldman.

Webern would make one statement of his idea and stop, his works might last 40 seconds.  Feldman got to the point of writing works of several hours in length which might consist of permutations of the same gesture for long periods of time.

One of the most adroit criticisms of Schoenberg, imo, was his desire to pour 12-tone music into old forms.  To some degree many new composers are still doing the same thing.

Absolutely, but I speak from the point of view that long forms are incredibly helpful for composers if they have a commission to write a 20 minute piece, for example the one we were talking about by Ammann.

[Mahlerian]

One of the most adroit criticisms of Schoenberg, imo, was his desire to pour 12-tone music into old forms.  To some degree many new composers are still doing the same thing.

It was an utterly wrongheaded criticism.  Schoenberg didn't simply stick the 12-tone method into older forms, he melded the two and had them work in dialogue with each other.  The divisions of the pseudo-sonata form in the first movements of the Wind Quintet or the Third String Quartet, for example, aren't simply used for the sake of formality.  They clarify and help to elucidate the use of the row, and draw upon it as a resource.

Also, if you actually break his forms down, they're not nearly so conventional as is sometimes stated (same thing with his rhythms).

[San Antone]

Not sure how much Philippe Manoury's name has come up in this thread ...

Le temps mode d'emploi (2014)

https://www.youtube.com/v/T_5OiYgWNcw

In situ (2013)

https://www.youtube.com/v/EqnV4ESda1A

Second piano sonata (2008)

https://www.youtube.com/v/OOg_jIn6S9Y

[San Antone]

Absolutely, but I speak from the point of view that long forms are incredibly helpful for composers if they have a commission to write a 20 minute piece, for example the one we were talking about by Ammann.

It sounds as if you think of "form" as being a separate and prescriptive element of the process of composition.  Whereas for me "form" results from the music.

[some guy]

It sounds as if you think of "form" as being a separate and prescriptive element of the process of composition.  Whereas for me "form" results from the music.

This is pretty close to what I was thinking of saying, once I'd read to the end of the thread. And then there my comment was, at the end of the thread!

Anyway, I'd only add that the impression I'd gotten from jessop's remarks was that form is not so much a thing that is separate or prescriptive but that it is a thing that can be separate. That a form is something a composer can choose to prescribe, for whatever reasons.

I imposed a form on a long thing, a novel, so that I could get through it--so that I could feel like the things I was doing were more than simply capricious. The one that preceded that one was entirely capricious, and I felt that that was maybe not entirely a good thing. My very best readers (I am fortunate to have two of those people) disagree.

So you never know. I think that organic form and inorganic form (as it were) can each produce crappy work and can each produce spectacular work. The difference, for me as a novelist, has been simply a practical one. Imposing a form takes off some of the pressure of creating. And in the instance in which I used it, it turned out to be actually an organic part of the whole compositional process. (I didn't impose the form until a large chunk had already been produced by other means.)

[milk]

For the "minimalists"

[aleazk]

My favorite approach to form is a polyphonic spiderweb in which lines evolve freely, but controled under some set of rules, and make the web to distort and change... also, sometimes some lines win over others and so on... of course, at the long scale, the composer should control the overall texture to produce the needed contrasts etc.

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

It sounds as if you think of "form" as being a separate and prescriptive element of the process of composition.  Whereas for me "form" results from the music.

That isn't exactly what I mean, but to a large extent thinking about composition structurally is something that can help composers get through the process of composing, pretty much as some guy put it.

[torut]

For the "minimalists"

This is brilliant. Thank you. If I didn't know the composer's name, I would have thought it's Tom Johnson.


I recently purchased some Wandelweiser CDs. I am now listening to Eva-Maria Houben's works for piano. Extremely austere.

drei choräle (penser à satie) (2007)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjRMng_oa4E

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

My favorite approach to form is a polyphonic spiderweb in which lines evolve freely, but controled under some set of rules, and make the web to distort and change... also, sometimes some lines win over others and so on... of course, at the long scale, the composer should control the overall textute to produce the needed contrasts etc.

This is ah....somehow both very specific but also very vague in terms of how it links to form.........but I like this approach too.

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

Milica Djordjević—anyone heard any of her music? This piece certainly seems structurally like a 'polyphonic web' but I would also wonder to what degree this has a very 'swimmy' aesthetic

https://www.youtube.com/v/RZvnmECvtBA

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

Not sure how much Philippe Manoury's name has come up in this thread ...

Le temps mode d'emploi (2014)

https://www.youtube.com/v/T_5OiYgWNcw

In situ (2013)

https://www.youtube.com/v/EqnV4ESda1A

Second piano sonata (2008)

https://www.youtube.com/v/OOg_jIn6S9Y

I really like In situ. His second piano sonata is good too.......but I haven't heard Le temps mode d'emploi.

[aleazk]

This is ah....somehow both very specific but also very vague in terms of how it links to form.........but I like this approach too.

Yes, the thing is that, at the macro scale, you can direct the web to fit a form... for example, the third movement of Ligeti's Piano Concerto can be described as a Rondo, where sections based on the lamento motif (and similar to the Piano Etude Automne a Varsovie) alternate with "african episodes", characterized by the bongos playing the typical african 4:3 polyrhythm.

On the other hand, it can be simply formless. In my own Piano Concerto piece* (sorry for the dubious example), I tried to do this, where the material simply evolves constantly and at the macro level I only worried about textural contrasts. In the third movement, however, I did some Rondo-like thing.

*After an introduction, three independent lines are introduced, 1,2, and 3. Then 1 and 3 just change harmonically, while 2 (which is the piano part) suffers changes in both rhythm and harmony. Then the original 2 stops and 1 and 3 take the lead, the piano plays 3 and introduces gradual changes. Then 2 comes back and suffers more changes until it completely changes from its original self, where both hands played the same accents, to a polymeter between the accents in both hands, and this is the cadenza. Then a coda and bye. I also tried to do similar things in my few pieces of musique concrete. How do YOU approach form in your pieces then?

[Cato]

How do YOU approach form in your pieces then?

When I was composing, I often let the musical material dictate the form, and followed it somewhat instinctively.

Check out my Exaudi me. the only work (so far) salvaged from the memory hole of my musical past.

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,26569.0.html

Scroll to response #13 for access to the score and a MIDI choir performance.

I tended to compose melodies with 9-bar periodicity, but the melody was structured with motifs of 3 bars each.  Thus by rearranging the 3 motifs, one could create variations rather instantly, and thereby create new harmonic possibilities in the counterpoint.  With three different such melodies, things could become rather complex very quickly.

But all of that quickly comes across as bloodless experimentation or polyphonic tinkering, until one hears something that strikes the soul...and then one runs with it, until one's aesthetic judgment says: "Yes, that expresses what I want in the way I want it!"    0:)

So, one can use these ideas for a continual variation and development A-B-C-D-E-F etc.  or allow the ancestors to return now and then in some way, whatever the ear finds pleasing.