Chopin Recordings

[Dancing Divertimentian]

If I had one small criticism it would be that maybe the pianist could have used a slightly wider range of dynamics......

Speaking of wider dynamics you'll find a generous amount in John Browning's recording of the etudes on RCA, with ample nimbleness and color to boot.




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[Mandryka]

It's interesting how, in the 1960s and 1970s, there seems to have been a movement towards the de-Romanticisation of 19th century music -- Pollini being the most well known exponent here in Chopin, but also Gulda in Beethoven. What marks Pollini's Etudes for me is the rejection of arbitrary dynamic and tempo changes.


Are there any other anti-romantic musicians from this period?

I thought that the 1960 etudes were slightly more expansive than the 1976 and that worked well for me in the Tristesse for example. I also thought I detected more elfin-ness and more humour. I thought the piano tone was slightly more burnished and warm in 1960 than in 1976: was he more concerned about texture when he was younger?

  I'll listen to Ashkenazy (Moscow 1960) later to make some comparisons. I am really glad that I bought this recording.

Do that: do it with Tristesse. And you'll hear immediately the audacity of Pollini's style and how his simplicity and humility detracts nothing Chopin's music.

And Tristesse was IMO probably Ashekanzy's greatest achievement there.

[DieNacht]

Perhaps Magaloff ?

Wikipedia for instance states

While these recordings have been criticised for their failure to plumb the depths of Chopin's works,
they were innovative for their textual fidelity and unsentimentality. Magaloff, for example, preferred and
recorded Chopin's own manuscript versions of the waltzes rather than the familiar versions published
posthumously by Julian Fontana.

I own his complete Chopin LP set, but must say that I prefer the romantic school. The concept of anti-
romanticism as potentially valuable in this respect is interesting though ...

I see now that his Chopin project for philips was only begun in 1974.

EDIT: there´s an unusual scientific article on a Magaloff case of Chopin rubato here:
http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:58PxlJvO4pkJ:iwk.mdw.ac.at/goebl/papers/Goebl2011-ForumAcusticum-331.pdf+magaloff+chopin+rubato&hl=da&gl=dk&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESi4qx6H1pr-dyzbVHkvFmEXmVu2wEucbnG27hGbEqOAVdiq-U8fxDqad0-jdU-hqVnqCKhegHTxrSf_WMLZiwizj5GX4xJRGVfMypxNAvYSpeR8aOgzehvpEcbQrMYiD9dI7fvY&sig=AHIEtbTNBDgcOAu9Cil2NjnYs_UAuF_mNQ

and a digital analysis of the number of errors in his playing (!) here (p.12, for instance):
http://www.cp.jku.at/research/papers/flossmann_etal_jnmr_2010.pdf
concluding that Magaloff when playing as an old man made many errors and that these were probably
voluntary (they don´t talk much about a lack of technique or ability).

Overall this seems to play down the presence of objectivity in his style.

[George]

It's interesting how, in the 1960s and 1970s, there seems to have been a movement towards the de-Romanticisation of 19th century music -- Pollini being the most well known exponent here in Chopin, but also Gulda in Beethoven. What marks Pollini's Etudes for me is the rejection of arbitrary dynamic and tempo changes.

Are there any other anti-romantic musicians from this period?

Michelangeli?

[Mandryka]

Michelangeli?

I think he can be like that sometimes, but not always. It's a complicated thing, Michelangeli performance, which I don't really understand. There's a very virtuoso early phase,  and some of his late Chopin is extremely sentimental. He's extremely variable in style.

Of course one striking difference between mature Pollini and Micheangeli is to do with tone --  the hardness in the louder music at the  start of the Funeral March here, for example. Is that part of the de-Romanticisation. A deliberate move away from the idea of music as beautiful sound. In the second subject Pollini is more like speech than song  I think.

http://www.youtube.com/v/y0mAbw-niI8

I have heard recrdings where ABM plays the second subject of this movement in the same matter of fact way as MP.  But there are others where he's more flexible, where he creates more tension,  and where he cultivates more tonal beauty, and where he wants to the music to  sing like an aria.

[Drasko]

Michelangeli?

Yes and no, I think. It's pretty obvious that Michelangeli was, right from emerging during 40s, worlds away stylistically from rubato-heavy golden age 'romantic' pianists as Paderewsky, Friedman or Hofmann, but I don't think he ever strived toward objectivity as a goal, or to any sort of intentional break with romantic tradition (he'd routinely break hands when he'd think appropriate). I'd call him modern but not objective, similar maybe can be said for Francois.

Also, I'm more inclined to think that de-Romanticisation of 19th century music is a process that more or less ends with Pollini, starting with likes of Levhinne and Godowsky, and following through with Michelangeli and Rubinstein. 

[George]

Also, I'm more inclined to think that de-Romanticisation of 19th century music is a process that more or less ends with Pollini, starting with likes of Levhinne and Godowsky, and following through with Michelangeli and Rubinstein.

By end you mean that the evolution of it ended, yet it continues on? I only wish that de-Romanticisation of 19th century music ended with Pollini. 

[Holden]

Mandryka sums up this Pollini recording when he talks about simplicity, no attempt to add unnecessary colorations, extra rubato etc and this is in essence how Chopin probably played it himself (and anecdotal evidence does tend to back this up).

The best single recording I've ever heard of Chopin is by a pianist we don't usually associate with romantic music - Solomon Cutner.

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The Berceuse alone is an absolute masterpiece. Where the vast majority of pianists pull the tempo this way and that in an attempt to wring every single ounce of beauty out of this work, Solomon achieves this by playing it very steadily and letting his control of tonal palette make this work for him. I hear similar things with many parts of this new recording of the etudes - colour as opposed to bombast.

[Mandryka]

Also, I'm more inclined to think that de-Romanticisation of 19th century music is a process that more or less ends with Pollini, starting with likes of Levhinne and Godowsky, and following through with Michelangeli and Rubinstein.

Yes  I thought the bit in bold, from memory of their recordings  -- in fact I even posted something about Godowsky and Rubinstein, and then deleted it. What I made me delete it was listening to Godowsky in Op 37/2 and Rubinstein in Op 25/1 (both on youtube)

When you listen though you realise how extreme Pollini is in this. How much more "flexible" for want of a better word, Godowsky and Rubinstein are

I need to think about whether the idea has effectively ended with Pollini. Hamelin's Chopin is, from memory, anti romantic. But I could be wrong.

[George]

Mandryka sums up this Pollini recording when he talks about simplicity, no attempt to add unnecessary colorations, extra rubato etc and this is in essence how Chopin probably played it himself (and anecdotal evidence does tend to back this up).

The best single recording I've ever heard of Chopin is by a pianist we don't usually associate with romantic music - Solomon Cutner.

[asin]B000003XIC[/asin]

The Berceuse alone is an absolute masterpiece. Where the vast majority of pianists pull the tempo this way and that in an attempt to wring every single ounce of beauty out of this work, Solomon achieves this by playing it very steadily and letting his control of tonal palette make this work for him. I hear similar things with many parts of this new recording of the etudes - colour as opposed to bombast.

Because you mentioned this before, I decided to grab a nice cheap used copy.  Order Total (like new CD): $4.48 

[Drasko]

When you listen though you realise how extreme Pollini is in this. How much more "flexible" for want of a better word, Godowsky and Rubinstein are

Exactly, because de-Romanticisation (horrible word), as change of performance practice and general view of the music was gradual process, and Rubinstein and Godowsky are in timeline closer to its beginning. But they definitely were the part of the shift.

I need to think about whether the idea has effectively ended with Pollini. Hamelin's Chopin is, from memory, anti romantic. But I could be wrong.

You want to say (and George in previous post) that Hamelin goes even further, and that the de-Romanticisation isn't yet fully accomplished? I'd have to ponder a bit on that, the performance practice is definitely ever changing, but de-Romanticisation is I think done, romantic piano playing no longer exist today and ultra rare exceptions like Katsaris are treated more as an aberration.     

[Mandryka]

A propos of nothing I just wanted to share this because it's so fun

http://www.youtube.com/v/e3O1yygAEc0

[George]

You want to say (and George in previous post) that Hamelin goes even further, and that the de-Romanticisation isn't yet fully accomplished?

I certainly hope that isn't the case. For me, the level of non-romantic playing in Pollini's Chopin is already well past the point where it woud be enjoyable for me.

de-Romanticisation is I think done, romantic piano playing no longer exist today and ultra rare exceptions like Katsaris are treated more as an aberration.

It's sad but true. Hopefully it shall return one day.

[Mandryka]

There's plenty of inflected, flexible, nuanced, personal, subjective Chopin playing being performed today. Have you heard Ben Grosvenor's Scherzo 1 -- in the central section especially?

There's also Sokolov, Pletnev, Virssaladze, Gekic, Pogorelich, Koroliov, Afanassiev, Lubimov. Maybe you see all these as aberrations.

Pollini's Chopin suits me fine except for the hard tone, but I think that there are signs that he's starting to create more friendly textures -- at least that's what I felt when I heard him play in London recently.

[Mandryka]

If I had one small criticism it would be that maybe the pianist could have used a slightly wider range of dynamics though maybe this is down to the recording engineer.

Maybe that's all part of the aesthetic -- no arbitrary dynamic effects. The peaks and troughs  are in the music and nothing needs to be added by the pianist.

Was there less dynamic range on authentic pianos?

I just wonder how much this deromanticising is part of the HIP idea which formed so much of late 20th century practical aesthetics. Especially if there's anecdotal evidence that the composer played like this. It's interesting that Pollini's Liszt is equally audacious and equally objective and uncompromising:

http://www.youtube.com/v/CrWxzv0OImA

[Drasko]

There's also Sokolov, Pletnev, Virssaladze, Gekic, Pogorelich, Koroliov, Afanassiev, Lubimov. Maybe you see all these as aberrations.

No, I just don't see any of them as romantic pianists, in a sense of continuance of Golden Age performance practices. As I said for Francois, I'd consider most of these non objective but modern.

Pogorelich is anything but romantic, his Chopin was so modern and new that judges couldn't process it, and kicked him out of competition, if you look at those youtube clips from competition there is nothing romantic about his industrial strength, hyper angry staccato playing.
Sokolov is inflected, flexible, nuanced, subjective but his idol is Glenn Gould, not Pachman, Paderewski and the lot.
Koroliov and Lubimov come from baroque traditions, not romantic.
Afanassiev is closest to what I'd call anti romantic.

Gekic I'll concede, he indeed resembles romantic pianists of old. But one or two pianists don't mean that romantic tradition is being upheld.     

[Holden]

My favourite all time Chopin pianist is Rubinstein, Despite the fact that he didn't record all the Etudes because he didn't feel he had the technical facility it's his 'feel' for the music that wins out for me. Once again I like the fact that he doesn't overdo the inflections, nuances, etc, his is a subtle approach to this. I have a Sokolov Chopin recital from Amsterdam that is also in this vein.

[Mandryka]

Pogorelich is anything but romantic, his Chopin was so modern and new that judges couldn't process it, and kicked him out of competition, if you look at those youtube clips from competition there is nothing romantic about his industrial strength, hyper angry staccato playing.
 

That's then. But what about what he's doing now?

http://www.youtube.com/v/iNwPYFKVQnM

Not much hyper angry staccato there!

I have the competition CD -- I thought the Mazurkas were pretty romantic actually but I'll listen again.

Has Sokolov said anything about Gould?

Afanassiev is very interesting. I've been listening to his Beethoven concertos recently -- it's all about beauty. I'm not sure how deep it is. Have you heard his PC 4? I've not played his Mazurkas CD for years.

Koroliov's Mazurkas are far from baroque -- he doesn't use that distinctive articulation you can hear in some of his Bach recordings. He's like a different pianist.

I mentioned Lubimov because when I was thinking about Godowsky and Rubinstein yesterday I thought of him as a potential de-romanticiser, but no, I played a couple of his  Ballades and, no. His Berceuse is one of the most extraordinary Chopin recordings I've ever heard.

[Drasko]

That's then. But what about what he's doing now?

What he does now is most of the time beyond my ability to comprehend.

Has Sokolov said anything about Gould?

I was sure I heard/read him speaking about Gould's influence on him, but now can't remember where and when. So don't quote me on that.

Koroliov's Mazurkas are far from baroque -- he doesn't use that distinctive articulation you can hear in some of his Bach recordings. He's like a different pianist.

Interesting, I'll have to check that out. The only pianist who always strike me as two different people when playing Bach and romantic repertoire is Feinberg.

I mentioned Lubimov because when I was thinking about Godowsky and Rubinstein yesterday I thought of him as a potential de-romanticiser, but no, I played a couple of his  Ballades and, no. His Berceuse is one of the most extraordinary Chopin recordings I've ever heard.

I have that, lovely disc. Will try to give it a spin later today.

[Mandryka]

My favourite all time Chopin pianist is Rubinstein, Despite the fact that he didn't record all the Etudes because he didn't feel he had the technical facility it's his 'feel' for the music that wins out for me. Once again I like the fact that he doesn't overdo the inflections, nuances, etc, his is a subtle approach to this. I have a Sokolov Chopin recital from Amsterdam that is also in this vein.

I like Rubinstein in the specifically Polish and political music -- Polonaises and mazurkas.

Pletnev and Cortot have found a way of playing some of the other music which gives it tremendous psychological depth -- I'm thinking of Pletnev in the Barcarolle and Cortot in Op. 27/ 1.  After them, Rubinstein won't do for me: he's too straight.

Your Amsterdam Sokolov is Op 28 -- right?