Oh, look! Another US mass shooting.

[Karl Henning]

No, I suppose it doesn't, but it also doesn't mean that a weapon will fall into the wrong hands. Happens every day and will continue to happen.

Now, yes, it happens every day: because that's the environment. Change the environment, call bullshit on the culture of gun worship, and it won't happen every day. Your complacency is complicity, John.

[Mirror Image]

Now, yes, it happens every day: because that's the environment. Change the environment, call bullshit on the culture of gun worship, and it won't happen every day. Your complacency is complicity, John.

You can change the environment all you want. Sure, but it doesn't stop people from killing someone else does it?

[Mirror Image]

FYI, I'm against guns and quite honestly they scare me because of what they represent: war, destruction, death, crime, etc. Sometimes I'm ashamed of being an American, but then I think that I'm not like these maniacs that walk amongst us, I'm one of the good ones who has been blessed with a conscience.

[Karl Henning]

It stops some of, and a great deal of, the killing. Your implication that nothing short of 100% success is worth pursuing, is fallacious, and plays into the NRA's game.

[Mirror Image]

It stops some of, and a great deal of, the killing. Your implication that nothing short of 100% success is worth pursuing, is fallacious, and plays into the NRA's game.

Karl, I'm for gun laws and for stricter policies concerning gun ownership. Where in my posts did I say I was AGAINST these ideas? My point is that a mentally ill person hellbent on killing people will find a gun, a knife, a baseball bat....need I go on? The issue is a sociological one. It has to do with our culture and how the U.S. has become such a cold, heartless place, which is an issue that I really don't feel like discussing tonight especially in light of what occurred today.

Bless these families in their time of grief.

[ibanezmonster]

I don't presume to know anything about the lifestyles, psychologies or motivations of Finns. Nor should you presume to know jackshit about the average American because you saw some movies and TV shows. Just sayin'. 

You have to admit there are some people like that, though. 

So was the guy in China in a competition with the guy in America? People, we have video games to test out that type of stuff. 

[snyprrr]

These mass shootings that occur with almost boring regularity in the US are almost always done by people who have social, psychological or psychiatric problems, and vent their displeasure on random and innocent parts of the population.

Note that James Holmes's father was set to testify in the LIBOR scandel

http://current.com/community/93856502_colorado-shooters-father-is-senior-scientist-for-fico-set-to-testify-before-congress-in-libor-hearings.htm


and that, gosh!, this new guy Adam Lanza's father... drumroll please... a VP at GE!! Perhaps Lanza wasn't playing ball?

http://deadlinelive.info/2012/12/15/father-of-alleged-connecticut-shooter-is-vp-of-ge-capital-according-to-reports/


I'm by no means hinting at anything... no, wouldn't do that... did I mention LIBOR? I'm sure you don't find this amusing... do you?

btw- 2nd amendment isn't for hunting. It's really hard for a tyrannical government to oppress an armed citizenry. That's why we NEED FULLY AUTOMATIC ARMS.

Frankly, after this latest LIBOR/GE revelation, I'm just going to blanket state that these shootings are, at the best, FAKE, and, at the worst, a hideously PLANNED OPERATION BY people other than the accused- DEAD- so-called shooter. Obama ordered the hit? GE's Jeff Immelt is an Obama sycophant,... maybe Lanza knew too much of something?


So then, we have two shooters with famous dad's,... uh, famous to people who don't want the truth to get out, I suppose?


You know, show me ONE of these super shootings where there are ANY witnesses, ANY camera footage, ANYTHING that a 'normal' crime scene would have.


http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1736501,00.html

http://www.military.com/video/guns/small-arms/australias-gun-ban-not-working-so-well/1775480805001/

http://www.gunsandcrime.org/auresult.html

[snyprrr]

SSRI:

http://www.naturalnews.com/034433_SSRI_drugs_children_murder.html

[snyprrr]

How Israel Avoids School Shootings:

http://12160.info/photo/how-israel-avoids-school-shootings

[Hollywood]

Unfortunately as awful and horrifying as this news is, this is something that happens all too often in the USA. Who needs international terrorists when the USA has its own people doing things like this on American soil? Americans are going Postal all over the country and there is nothing anyone can do about it. And it's not always committed by someone who everyone knew was a psycho and that something like this was going to happen sooner or later. Sometimes the perpetrator of such a crime is someone that no one would ever suspect, like the nice boy next door.

They say that people like this are usually feeling suicidal (among other things). What gets me is that if you want to kill yourself that is your choice, but don't feel that you have to take the lives of innocent people along with you.

It's unfortunate that it is so easy to get guns in the USA and the only thing is for the government to make it even harder for people to get one. But gun control in the USA will never take complete hold because of the second amendment of the U.S. Constitution stating to "protect the right of the people to keep and bear arms". If only those founding fathers had any idea what problems this amendment would cause 200 years down the line. But then back in those days you pretty much needed a gun to protect your family from either an attack from any native Americans or the British (if it was during the Revolutionary War). I don't remember reading anything in my US history books about the early Americans at that time going into a small neighboring town, then shooting everyone they see and then commit suicide.

Nowadays it is way too often that Americans are going Postal. It will be interesting to see what, if anything, will be done to keep this from happening again. Good luck with that America.

[The new erato]

But however and whatever - what in the world is the rationale about defending a single mother's right to keep 5 guns lying around the house? And how in the world can one rationalize that reducing the number of weapons floating around in the society will reduce safety and security? The mind boggles................

[North Star]

I don't presume to know anything about the lifestyles, psychologies or motivations of Finns. Nor should you presume to know jackshit about the average American because you saw some movies and TV shows. Just sayin'. 

Thank goodness I wasn't talking about average Americans, then, just some guys (nice guys) I've personally known on the Internet (not here), or seen on YT videos - certainly not representative of the average American.
And I'm not saying that shooting beer cans isn't fun, or that there's something wrong with it.



I agree with MI, to a degree - if someone really wants to kill a lot of people, and they have time to plan it, they can build a bomb or three, but other than that, I don't think most people could do as much damage without guns. And the one with the bombs can do even more damage with both guns and bombs.
Obviously bad guys would still get guns, but they're not the school shooters, and defending oneself against armed robbers isn't necessarily increasing your odds.

And I don't think it's appropriate to accuse non-Americans of dancing on graves. Preventive actions should take place as soon as possible, because usually these people are inspired by previous shootings.

[The new erato]

Obviously bad guys would still get guns, but they're not the school shooters,

Yes, that's the crux of the matter. Bad guys mostly shoots bad guys, and I find few stories about good guys defending themselves succesfully with guns against bad guys. Unbalanced persons shoot kids, and with stricter gun laws it would be far harder for them.

[Gurn Blanston]

Another 'morally corrupt' sociopath type. The issue isn't the guns imo, it's deeper than that .. it's the 'very few' like this sick kid that lose the plot and go unnoticed and-or neglected for so long.

Absolutely right.

[Gurn Blanston]

Thank goodness I wasn't talking about average Americans, then, just some guys (nice guys) I've personally known on the Internet (not here), or seen on YT videos - certainly not representative of the average American.
And I'm not saying that shooting beer cans isn't fun, or that there's something wrong with it.

Ah, I see. The tone of your initial post was a fooler. Just as an FYI, I see garbage on TV and movies every day which, despite the now-popular adjective "Reality..." being used liberally, no more represent reality in America than the self-proclaimed fiction of earlier times did.  At least we used to admit it.

Just as a matter of having the tools to calculate ones own statistics with, here are some figures from the World Bank on population of a few of our represented countries here;

Australia  --      22,620,000
Britain      --     62,641,000
Finland     --       5,387,000
Holland     --    16,696,000
USA          --  311,592,000 

So, let's pick a number for argument's sake and say that 1 in 10,000,000 people in a population are this variety of brain-dead homicidal maniac. In Australia you might have 2 such people to isolate in a given time. In Britain maybe 6. Finland wouldn't have any, they watched Norway's with interest though, I'm sure. Netherlands will have one crop up once in a while. By the same measurement standard, statistically the USA would have 31 such people to find and isolate. Each one a time bomb waiting for its clock to count down.

The proposals that I've seen here so far go a long way towards keeping me from having a gun to shoot beer cans with, but they don't do anything to isolate the lunatic-in-waiting. What would actually do some good is a two-fold effort on the part of the populace as a whole. The first would be an educational effort to help people recognize the signs of this lunacy. All of these people set off warning alarms in people, but they couldn't identify the root of them, nor did they report it other than ex post facto. The second one is to overhaul our mental health care so that when these suspected persons are identified, they will be isolated and treated. And the third, corollary part, of course, is to take all bleeding-heart psychologists out of the decision making process  so that they aren't recommending release of this totally rehabilitated upstanding citizen the first time that opportunity presents.

I note that this particular lunatic attended that school, where his mother (a victim) was a teacher. Among the people he killed (other than children, who were random) were the Principal and the Psychologist. I doubt the randomness of that.

[North Star]

Ah, I see. The tone of your initial post was a fooler. Just as an FYI, I see garbage on TV and movies every day which, despite the now-popular adjective "Reality..." being used liberally, no more represent reality in America than the self-proclaimed fiction of earlier times did.  At least we used to admit it.

Yes, I could have said it better, and posting at 4 AM doesn't help...
Reality shows I avoid like the plague, and agree that they're very far from actual reality.

Just as a matter of having the tools to calculate ones own statistics with, here are some figures from the World Bank on population of a few of our represented countries here;

Australia  --      22,620,000
Britain      --     62,641,000
Finland     --       5,387,000
Holland     --    16,696,000
USA          --  311,592,000 

So, let's pick a number for argument's sake and say that 1 in 10,000,000 people in a population are this variety of brain-dead homicidal maniac. In Australia you might have 2 such people to isolate in a given time. In Britain maybe 6. Finland wouldn't have any, they watched Norway's with interest though, I'm sure. Netherlands will have one crop up once in a while. By the same measurement standard, statistically the USA would have 31 such people to find and isolate. Each one a time bomb waiting for its clock to count down.

The proposals that I've seen here so far go a long way towards keeping me from having a gun to shoot beer cans with, but they don't do anything to isolate the lunatic-in-waiting. What would actually do some good is a two-fold effort on the part of the populace as a whole. The first would be an educational effort to help people recognize the signs of this lunacy. All of these people set off warning alarms in people, but they couldn't identify the root of them, nor did they report it other than ex post facto. The second one is to overhaul our mental health care so that when these suspected persons are identified, they will be isolated and treated. And the third, corollary part, of course, is to take all bleeding-heart psychologists out of the decision making process  so that they aren't recommending release of this totally rehabilitated upstanding citizen the first time that opportunity presents.

I note that this particular lunatic attended that school, where his mother (a victim) was a teacher. Among the people he killed (other than children, who were random) were the Principal and the Psychologist. I doubt the randomness of that.

The problem in recognizing these lunatics is that usually they don't show obvious signs, and they aren't socially active people. Plenty of the 'signs' are just normal youngster stuff - in junior high, a friend of a friend drew a pile of skulls on an exam paper because he'd answered the questions before they could leave, and the next day the teacher or headmaster called his parents and they had to meet a psychologist. A 14-year old boy drawing skulls or weapons or whatever is pretty far from being abnormal. This was before the school shooting boom of 2007-2009 in Finland (there had been one shooting a couple of decades before that).

School bullying and dysfunctional families are the usual things that lead to these shootings, and help should arrive before there are any signs of mental illness. It's not too uncommon that there are kids that are bullied by the whole class, and when those kids' families haven't been supportive enough, or just haven't realized the situation, we have a potential school shooter.
Stopping systematic school bullying would probably go a long way in preventing these shootings.

[snyprrr]

So it's not even interesting that 1) his dad is a GE VP, that 2) Holmes's father was set to testify at LIBOR, and 3) the nanny killed the two kids of a CNN guy? Who is Loughtner's (Gifford shooting) dad?

[Gurn Blanston]

So it's not even interesting that 1) his dad is a GE VP, that 2) Holmes's father was set to testify at LIBOR, and 3) the nanny killed the two kids of a CNN guy? Who is Loughtner's (Gifford shooting) dad?

Not sure if it is uninteresting or if it is irrelevant. You make the call!

[North Star]

Many kids out there in the newer generations 'are weaker' than ever, no backbone .. this whole bullying excuse that's arose is bullshit imo. Bullying has existed forever, it's no excuse to kill, or 'real' reason to. It's another example of pointing the blame elsewhere. Perhaps through all this social networking we have now teachers & parents should communicate more often, to pick up on these behaviour things and address them. Parents have to take a more active role early on, otherwise don't bother having kids!

I agree, most parents should act a lot more responsibly. Nowadays there are plenty of parents who think they're supposed to be friends instead of parents, and they don't want to teach their kids to behave, but I don't think those children are the school shooters.

As to bullying being no excuse to kill - well duh, there is no real reason to kill anyone, except sometimes in self-defense it's unavoidable. But school is usually the only social contact these kids have outside of home, and I think its importance can't be overrated.
School bullying can trigger someone just as well as family problems, and usually there must be both.

[zamyrabyrd]

Anyone who has had close association with a bonafide narcissist or sociopath will derive from unfortunate experience that there are implacable needs and greeds that can never be satisfied. They are devastating in positions of power as dictators or cult leaders and in other contexts like companies as bosses or families as parents (re: Joan Crawford as Mommie Dearest) grossly abusive to underlings and those deemed weaker than they. Greed for material goods and for victims in the case of bloody tyrants or serial killers can never be appeased as it is impossible to go back in the past and right the original wrong.  Here is what Sam Vaknin who wrote extensively about narcissism has to say about it: http://samvak.tripod.com/faq73.html

Question:
How do narcissists react to criticism?

Answer:
Narcissists invariably react with narcissistic rage to narcissistic injury.
Narcissistic injury (or wound) is any threat (real or imagined) to the narcissist's grandiose and fantastic self-perception (False Self) as perfect, omnipotent, omniscient, and entitled to special treatment and recognition, regardless of his actual accomplishments (or lack thereof)...The narcissist is forever trapped in the unresolved conflicts of his childhood (including the famous Oedipus Complex). This compels him to seek resolution by re-enacting these conflicts with significant others.

At the base of all this is an inability to accept the discomfort of not having one's wants immediately satisfied. Conventional upbringing of children used force when necessary to bring unruly urges into line. I found that most of the narcissists in my circle were essentially spoiled brats even if there was admitted "abuse". In a culture where immediate gratification is the norm and deferring it is the exception, when praise is cultivated even when not deserved, it is no surprise that frustration, criticism or bullying are seen as monumental. The whole of society is deemed culpable and no punishment given back to it is enough to expiate the crime done to oneself.

As society becomes increasingly self-absorbed, it is not surprise that narcissism has been taken off the list of personality disorders for the bible of psychology, the latest Diagnostic and Statistical Manual.  When society is producing zombies who trespass over the rights of others either because they don't acknowledge them or it is the norm to step on others to get what you want, access to guns should be at a minimum. Back in the late 1700's other values prevailed in the US when the 2nd Amendment was conceived. It is hard to imagine some nasty 20-30 year old taking out his vengeance on society back then or even 40 years ago by shooting up unarmed people in a theatre, resort (as in Norway) church or school.

ZB