Insights, Snippets, Quotes, Epiphanies & All That Sort of Things

[Florestan]

"I believe that there is little probability that the twelve-note scale will ever produce anything more than morbid or entirely cerebral growths. It might deal successfully with neuroses of various kinds, but I cannot imagine it associated with any healthy and happy concept such as young love or the coming of spring." --- Sir Arnold Bax

I can vividly imagine the horror, the shock and the consequent wave of outraged condemnations and solemn protestations to the contrary that would have followed had anyone posted the above in certain threads without mentioning the author...   

[Karl Henning]

In a sense, it is perfectly true: the author could not imagine any such things  0:)

[Florestan]

In a sense, it is perfectly true: the author could not imagine any such things  0:)

Well, I would really like to hear 12-tone music associated with young love or the coming of spring. Please recommend me some. TIA.

[Karl Henning]

Well, I would really like to hear 12-tone music associated with young love or the coming of spring. Please recommend me some. TIA.

Do you mean, if I cannot show you that it has been done, to your satisfaction, and in the relatively brief time that a relatively few composers have been working with the method, it is impossible, and that therefore maestro Bax's lack of imagination is fully vindicated? 

The fourth number of Webern's second Cantata (Leichteste Bürden der Bäume) probably does not strictly fall into your request for "the coming of spring," but it is sufficiently lovely that I'll bring it forth (from the beginning to about the 01:05 mark):

https://www.youtube.com/v/b3RMic1rQ2E

I don't believe the Webern Op.12 are actually twelve-tone (too early, I am guessing);  but I am sure maestro Bax would have found the musical language equally "unimaginable."  This is a setting of Goethe's "Gleich und gleich; 'Ein Blumenglockchen'" (beginning at 05:28):

https://www.youtube.com/v/TXXXb8xmihg

At 01:40, the young lady plays the Andantino amoroso from Dallapiccola's Quaderno musicale di Annalibera (so at least we have both young and love represented):

https://www.youtube.com/v/eAmy8dtqHDQ

Not really what you're looking for, either, but this is Stravinsky's setting of The Owl and the Pussycat:

https://www.youtube.com/v/VkCbRttgaeA

A duet from Wuorinen's Brokeback Mountain (begins tenderly, the scene ends in tension . . . and note that the music drives the contrast in character):

https://www.youtube.com/v/T9pb3RP12YE

[Florestan]

Do you mean, if I cannot show you that it has been done, to your satisfaction, and in the relatively brief time that a relatively few composers have been working with the method, it is impossible, and that therefore maestro Bax's lack of imagination is fully vindicated? 

You´re putting in my mouths words I have never spoken and in my mind thoughts I have never entertained. Regardless, thanks for the recs, will listent attentively asap.

As an aside, Bax might have lacked many things but imagination certainly was not among them. 

[Karl Henning]

You´re putting in my mouths words I have never spoken and in my mind thoughts I have never entertained.

No; I only asked a question.  I imagined the situation possible, I was not claiming that it was The Case.  I certainly was not averring that I could not imagine a situation where you thought otherwise than I was hypothesizing  0:)

As an aside, Bax might have lacked many things but imagination certainly was not among them. 

This is not an aside, it is the point;  this is a case where Bax's imagination fails.

Look at Sean:  he cannot imagine that there is new music to be written.  His inability to imagine it does not mean that it isn't happening.

Bax wanted music "associated with any healthy and happy concept such as young love or the coming of spring" to sound a certain way; that is one limitation of his imagination.

The statement, I believe that there is little probability that the twelve-note scale will ever produce anything more than morbid or entirely cerebral growths is, in the first place, mere prejudice (what, we're going to praise people for expressing narrow-minded prejudice?) and in the second, an insufficient grasp of the idea which he is dismissing—"the twelve-note scale"? Just which scale is that?  That is another limitation of his imagination.

I get the idea that he hadn't paid attention to the musical idea, because he didn't think it worth his time—but that just brings us back to prejudice, above.  The elective nature of his limited imagination is lamentable, and to be pitied.

I don't find Bax's screed against "the twelve-note scale" any more artistically binding than I do Tchaikovsky's calling Brahms "a talentless bastard."

[kishnevi]

Your last example was one that came to my mind.

Yet my ears heard that as two musics running in conjunction until the break point (when the one physically pushes the other away):  a voice singing melody with a tonally related descant, and an orchestral music with no apparent relation to the music being sung: and the tenderness all in the vocal portion.  (I will of course admit that having heard only clips of the opera, such as this one,  there may be connections that would be apparent if I heard the opera in full.)

[Karl Henning]

Yet my ears heard that as two musics running in conjunction until the break point (when the one physically pushes the other away):  a voice singing melody with a tonally related descant, and an orchestral music with no apparent relation to the music being sung: and the tenderness all in the vocal portion.  (I will of course admit that having heard only clips of the opera, such as this one,  there may be connections that would be apparent if I heard the opera in full.)

I think there is tenderness in the accompaniment, too (some curious echoes of Copland at times, too, which must have been deliberate).  I am not saying you have to hear it as I do, of course;  just saying my own piece.

[Florestan]

No; I only asked a question.  I imagined the situation possible, I was not claiming that it was The Case.  I certainly was not averring that I could not imagine a situation where you thought otherwise than I was hypothesizing  0:)

This is not an aside, it is the point;  this is a case where Bax's imagination fails.

Look at Sean:  he cannot imagine that there is new music to be written.  His inability to imagine it does not mean that it isn't happening.

Bax wanted music "associated with any healthy and happy concept such as young love or the coming of spring" to sound a certain way; that is one limitation of his imagination.

The statement, I believe that there is little probability that the twelve-note scale will ever produce anything more than morbid or entirely cerebral growths is, in the first place, mere prejudice (what, we're going to praise people for expressing narrow-minded prejudice?) and in the second, an insufficient grasp of the idea which he is dismissing—"the twelve-note scale"? Just which scale is that?  That is another limitation of his imagination.

I get the idea that he hadn't paid attention to the musical idea, because he didn't think it worth his time—but that just brings us back to prejudice, above.  The elective nature of his limited imagination is lamentable, and to be pitied.

I don't find Bax's screed against "the twelve-note scale" any more artistically binding than I do Tchaikovsky's calling Brahms "a talentless bastard."

Actually, you took much too seriously that quote, or my posting it. It was exactly Sean who sprang into my mind when I stumbled upon it so I thought it would be fun to play a little upon the whole thing. Apparently I was wrong. 

[Karl Henning]

Actually, you took much too seriously that quote, or my posting it. It was exactly Sean who sprang into my mind when I stumbled upon it so I thought it would be fun to play a little upon the whole thing. Apparently I was wrong. 

Well, why didn't you say! 

[ibanezmonster]

My new signature.

Interview with Mikael Akerfeldt, main songwriter for Opeth.

Tate: The songs that you create tend to be very dark. Would you say that that is an expression of your personality, or is it more your dark side coming out through the music?

Mikael: I think that comes out more in the lyrics than the music. Music-wise, I just kind of dig dynamics, and everything that is out of the ordinary. I don't enjoy a simple g chord with some happy singing over it. It has to be somewhat dramatic. But lyrically, especially for this last album, it's more the dark subconscious that contributes to the lyrics. But musically, it's just the style that I prefer. I've never been into happy stuff. I totally despise Blink-42 or whatever it's called, or Green Day. It's like child's play music, and it's not for me. I think that happy music has no soul.

It's rare for me to ever actually enjoy any happy sounding music. I think he summed it up for me in the last sentence so perfectly.

[jochanaan]

My new signature.

Interview with Mikael Akerfeldt, main songwriter for Opeth.

It's rare for me to ever actually enjoy any happy sounding music. I think he summed it up for me in the last sentence so perfectly.

There are many who feel as you do.  It's been my experience, though, that the happiest music does have a soul, but it comes from recognizing the darkness and transmuting it into joy.  Bach, Mozart, Haydn Beethoven and Mahler are particularly good at this.

[Wakefield]

My new signature.

Interview with Mikael Akerfeldt, main songwriter for Opeth.

It's rare for me to ever actually enjoy any happy sounding music. I think he summed it up for me in the last sentence so perfectly.

IMO, it's needed to be an artist more skilful than the average to create good stuff from true and deep happiness. I think it's because happiness is an end itself: when you're (really) happy, you don't need anymore; you are done. The fight is over.

On the contrary, as a human being, you need to do something with sadness and desperation, to transform it in something else, in something valuable and more bearable.

[ibanezmonster]

There are many who feel as you do.  It's been my experience, though, that the happiest music does have a soul, but it comes from recognizing the darkness and transmuting it into joy.  Bach, Mozart, Haydn Beethoven and Mahler are particularly good at this.

And I could certainly name several "happy" pieces by all of those composers that I enjoy. But what I find enjoyable about those pieces is not necessarily the happy sound, but how they are written (Mahler 4th, for example).

Something like a simple I-IV-V progression is pretty much the epitome of harmony that I dislike. I think that quote applies best to that. What sounds light years better is something like C maj-Ab maj-F min-C maj (how do you write that in Roman numerals?), and I guess that could be described as "happy." But to me that isn't simply "happy," it also has to me a sort of "fantasy" type element to its sound.

[Karl Henning]

"Happy music has no soul" is a prejudiced simplification, on about the same order as "Any dyspeptic teenager can write sad music."

[ibanezmonster]

"Happy music has no soul" is a prejudiced simplification, on about the same order as "Any dyspeptic teenager can write sad music."

It might be quite an overgeneralization, but he's probably mainly thinking about happy sounding pop and pop rock music (like the bands he mentioned). And I would add to that pretty much most Christian rock songs, also (I've heard so many that I do know what I'm talking about here). And most Christmas music.

(Or I could be wrong about him overgeneralizing. Most of his stuff sounds harmonically like minor key Prokofiev, so maybe he just doesn't have a taste for the major scale)?

To me, I agree that type of stuff doesn't sound like it has a soul. My emotional reactions are about the same as listening to a lawn mower. I guess some people feel differently, and that sort of music makes them happy, which I'll never understand. Brings up memories of being 9 years old and listening to a kids' version of "Onward Christian Soldiers" sing-along with a bouncing ball following the lyrics across the screen. It was psychologically tortuous. The only tune I remember from around that time that caught my attention was Peter's theme from Prokofiev's Peter and the Wolf- which also was happy, but a sort of twisted melody at the same time. Of course, it was nearly a decade after then when I actually discovered classical music and the composer who wrote that.

[Mirror Image]

My new signature.

Interview with Mikael Akerfeldt, main songwriter for Opeth.

It's rare for me to ever actually enjoy any happy sounding music. I think he summed it up for me in the last sentence so perfectly.

To add in my two cents: so the last movement (Allegro con spirito) of Brahms' Symphony No. 2 in D major has no soul because it's jovial? Happy is far too simplistic of a word anyway, because the connotations of the word mean something different for everyone, but I'll be damned if anyone thinks this Brahms movement lacks soul. For me, something that has these kinds of emotions tend to be uplifting and can soothe the soul as much as something that's more introspective and troubled. I'm a man of many emotions and can only hope that you are as well.

[ibanezmonster]

Brahms is one of the rare composers whose happy stuff sounds soulful to me lol. I guess Bruckner would be another one.
Mozart I have a hard time with a lot of his stuff, especially some major key symphonies that just pretty and nothing else. I don't think Akerfeldt was thinking about classical music when he said that.

What are you doing listening to Brahms, anyways? 

[ibanezmonster]

Quiz: which one sounds like it actually has soul and is human and which sounds plastic and fake?

https://www.youtube.com/v/TDSbZUKMvtI

https://www.youtube.com/v/NUTGr5t3MoY

Of course, I could get way worse with pop music, but Green Day was specifically one of the bands he mentioned. That's the gist of his point, Brahms/Mahler/whoever doesn't really factor into the equation.

[kishnevi]

Brahms is one of the rare composers whose happy stuff sounds soulful to me lol. I guess Bruckner would be another one.
Mozart I have a hard time with a lot of his stuff, especially some major key symphonies that just pretty and nothing else. I don't think Akerfeldt was thinking about classical music when he said that.

What are you doing listening to Brahms, anyways? 

There is happy music in Bruckner? 

Some of the best "happy" music is Mozart's, especially some of the middle movements of his piano concertos.  But it isn't the "get up and party" sort of happy, it's the walk-in-the-park-smell-the-flowers-on-a-sunny-day sort of happy.
Perhaps serenity or genial optimism is a better term for it.

Thee are some parts of music that are just pretty.  He did have a public to please, after all, same as Justin Bieber.