Rachmaninoff: Symphonic Dances

[david johnson]

After lisenting to my recordings, I believe I enjoy the dances more than his symphonies.  How about you folks?

[bhodges]

After hearing the Symphonic Dances again live recently, with Alan Gilbert and the New York Philharmonic, I think it might be his best piece - great orchestration, color and rhythmic energy.

--Bruce

[Cato]

It has been remarked that Rachmaninov's tragedy is that he did not compose more, due to the necessity of concertizing to support himself after the Russian Revolution.  I have also read that the loss of living in Russia was psychologically more depressing to his inspiration.

Whatever: the few works composed after the Russian Revolution are all masterpieces, and although some criticize The Rach for not being ein russischer Schoenberg, this criticism is invalid: will one task the apple for not being a cherry?

To be sure, the Symphonic Dances not only delight my ear, but also - even today after 5 decades of familiarity with the work -  whisper something ineffable to the spirit.

[DaveF]

I believe I enjoy the dances more than his symphonies.  How about you folks?

Yes, me too - just as I enjoy the Paganini Rhapsody more than the piano concertos.  I never feel that Rach is entirely happy with sonata form (although he does seem to manage all right in the concertos) - too often in the symphonies I can feel his will to live petering out at the end of an exposition, followed by a big bang to get things moving again in the development.  Others may find this dramatically effective.  The third symphony seems to me a very poor relation of the Dances.  Favourite moment (of many) has to be the point at which you're expecting the first dance to reveal itself as an ABAB form, and for the long sad sax tune to come back, only to get instead that sparkly glittering version of the Dies Iræ.

Best performance I ever heard, btw, was by my local band the BBC National Orchestra of Wales, early in 2003 (I remember that because my wife reported that our son was dancing in utero during the loud bits), conducted by Tadaaki Otaka - only spoiled by the huge roar of acclamation from the Cardiff audience after the final chord, completely drowning out the tam-tam swish.  I still remember the sight of the BBCNOW violas digging in for all they were worth to the down-bows in the Russian Orthodox tune in the finale.

DF

[TheGSMoeller]

After hearing the Symphonic Dances again live recently, with Alan Gilbert and the New York Philharmonic, I think it might be his best piece - great orchestration, color and rhythmic energy.

--Bruce

This. I've seen Dances in concert twice and it's quite the show-piece. Some challenging moments for the orchestra, especially in the final movement, and the excitement is apparent in these live performances. These concerts elevated my opinion of the piece and elevated my listens at home.
The symphonies are good, and possibly could have the same effect if seen live, but the Dances stick out among Rach's orchestral works.

Although, somedays nothing can top a good Isle of the Dead on headphones listen.

[The new erato]

After hearing the Symphonic Dances again live recently, with Alan Gilbert and the New York Philharmonic, I think it might be his best piece - great orchestration, color and rhythmic energy.

--Bruce

My favorite Rachmaninov, bar none. The two piano version is great as well.

[Mirror Image]

Symphonic Dances, The Bells, Isle of the Dead, and PCs are the reasons I return to Rachmaninov. I also like his opera Aleko and the cantata Spring.

[North Star]

Symphonic Dances, the 2nd Symphony, Isle of the Dead, the Piano Concertos and Rhapsody, the Cello Sonata, Piano Sonata no. 2, the Preludes, the Etudes-tableaux, and especially the All-night Vigil are magnificent. I haven't heard more than snippets from The operas, The Bells or Spring, though.

John, what do you think of the All-night Vigil?

[Mirror Image]

Symphonic Dances, the 2nd Symphony, Isle of the Dead, the Piano Concertos and Rhapsody, the Cello Sonata, Piano Sonata no. 2, the Preludes, the Etudes-tableaux, and especially the All-night Vigil are magnificent. I haven't heard more than snippets from The operas, The Bells or Spring, though.

John, what do you think of the All-night Vigil?

Haven't listened to it in years, Karlo. I need to reacquaint with the work soon.

[North Star]

Haven't listened to it in years, Karlo. I need to reacquaint with the work soon.

Definitely! Might just be my favourite from Rakhmaninov. Sveshnikov and Hillier are both superb.

[Karl Henning]

Okay, I'll say it: I like the symphonies very well, and I do not think that Rakhmaninov had any "discomfort" with sonata design.  I certainly fail to see any such 'discomfort' in any of the symphonies or concerti.

[Cato]

Okay, I'll say it: I like the symphonies very well, and I do not think that Rakhmaninov had any "discomfort" with sonata design.  I certainly fail to see any such 'discomfort' in any of the symphonies or concerti.

Amen!  I have always admired the structure of the middle movement in the Third Symphony, where the Scherzo is inside of the slow movement.

[not edward]

Okay, I'll say it: I like the symphonies very well, and I do not think that Rakhmaninov had any "discomfort" with sonata design.  I certainly fail to see any such 'discomfort' in any of the symphonies or concerti.

I'd agree for the most part. I find the 1st symphony a bit unsubtle in execution (and obviously indebted to Tchaikovsky's Manfred symphony), but to me that's a "young composer" issue not a Rachmaninov one. I still like the work, despite its flaws, though.

The Symphonic Dances are my single favourite Rachmaninov work by some distance, though: I'm not sure that I exactly know why, though it seems to me to be almost a summing up of the composer's life's work--the quotation from the then-suppressed first symphony at the climax of the first movement is surely highly significant, as is the coda to the whole work, where the Dies Irae-derived material that had haunted his entire career is finally defeated--for those who've not seen the score, the word Alleluia appears in it at this point. (It's a personal interpretation only, but I wonder if the joy expressed in the coda is not in some way that of an old, sick man realizing that he was going to live to complete what he must have known was one of his finest works.)

[Karl Henning]

I'd agree for the most part. I find the 1st symphony a bit unsubtle in execution (and obviously indebted to Tchaikovsky's Manfred symphony), but to me that's a "young composer" issue not a Rachmaninov one.

That's fair.

[Karl Henning]

I'd agree for the most part. I find the 1st symphony a bit unsubtle in execution (and obviously indebted to Tchaikovsky's Manfred symphony), but to me that's a "young composer" issue not a Rachmaninov one.

At the risk of careening off-tangent, one of my musical pet peeves is the yet-routine denigrating of composer N.'s facility with sonata design, essentially because it isn't as tidy as Mozart

[Cato]

At the risk of careening off-tangent, one of my musical pet peeves is the yet-routine denigrating of composer N.'s facility with sonata design, essentially because it isn't as tidy as Mozart

Amen!   0:)

Bruckner told his students at the Vienna Conservatory that while they studied with him they needed to follow the rules of composition.

But if after going out into the world they came back to him with works that still followed the rules precisely, he would throw them out!

[not edward]

Amen!   0:)

Bruckner told his students at the Vienna Conservatory that while they studied with him they needed to follow the rules of composition.

But if they came back to him after going out into the world with works that still followed the rules precisely, he would throw them out!

Which is a fair point. If you're going to break the rules, it's probably artistically a good idea to know why you broke them.

[some guy]

Not to help derail a thread on one of my favorite pieces or anything, but I just had to wonder out loud, again, at the remarkable resiliency of certain notions, like that whole rule breaking thing.

The standard expression of artistic activity is that you learn "the" rules in your apprenticeship, then you break them as a master craftsman. Often added is the warning that you have to have a damned good reason for breaking "the" rules, howsumever.

That this simple formula not only goes against history but logic as well seems to have no effect on its tenacity.

To be fair, there is a kind of sense to this notion. An apprentice composer does learn the craft-like elements of the profession by imitating what older composers have done. And once the imitating phase is over, one produces things much different from what those older composers did, or at least one does so if one wants to be taken seriously.

But really. Rules? The rules? What are those things and how did they come about?

Exactly. A master composer does things. A pedant comes along and looks at what the composer has done and makes rules out of them. At their most benign, then, rules are descriptions of practices, and practices from the past (necessarily). At their most pernicious, rules are constrictors, and what they're constricting you to do is recycle the practices of the past.

But that's not how the arts work at all, is it? The ruling principle of the arts is curiosity. The arts are all about adventure and exploration and discovery. The arts are all about making things that would not otherwise exist had you not made them, not about remaking objects that have already been made and made better no doubt.

What does any of that have to do with rules, with either obeying or breaking them? The whole concept of "the" rule is antithetical to anything valuable that happens in the arts.

Really love those Symphonic Dances, though, I gotta say.

[jochanaan]

some guy, The Rules really don't cover all possibilities, not by a "dam site."  They only suggest what might be possible in certain forms.  Their working-out always, always involve personal choices among many "right" ones.

And I do love the Symphonic Dances!  I really love that oboe countermelody in the first movement!