Beethoven Symphonies Cycle: Which is your #1 pick?

[NJ Joe]

This morning I purchased the Haitink LSO set on impulse, in spite of listening to samples for a few days and not being too impressed. Dunno why, it's not like I need another Beethoven set. But I listened to 3, 5, 1, and 6 in that order, and was thoroughly satisfied.  I did not find them to be at all bland or middle-of-the-road as reviewers on the interweb have suggested.  To the contrary, they sparkled with life. Good tempos, maybe a little rushed in the 2nd and 4th movement of the 5th, but I adapted. Excellent sound.  Looking forward to hearing the rest tomorrow and glad I made the purchase. Oh, and I also ordered the Abbado "red box" too. 

[Brian]

This morning I purchased the Haitink LSO set on impulse, in spite of listening to samples for a few days and not being too impressed. Dunno why, it's not like I need another Beethoven set. But I listened to 3, 5, 1, and 6 in that order, and was thoroughly satisfied.  I did not find them to be at all bland or middle-of-the-road as reviewers on the interweb have suggested.  To the contrary, they sparkled with life. Good tempos, maybe a little rushed in the 2nd and 4th movement of the 5th, but I adapted. Excellent sound.  Looking forward to hearing the rest tomorrow and glad I made the purchase. Oh, and I also ordered the Abbado "red box" too. 

Haitink's #3 is pretty good, but the best is yet to come for you, as I found him very strong in 2, 4, 6, and 8, with his 8 being one of my favorites. Abbado Red is one of my top full cycle choices, particularly 7-9.

I recently sampled a few Jaap van Zweden recordings and was not inspired. Can anybody point me to highlights of his set? Is the sound quality consistently fairly blah?

[Brian]

Just listening to Mackerras/Scottish #2, one of my favorite Seconds, on my fancy headphones. 8:48-49 in the first movement there's an electronic jangle in the right channel like somebody got a text message. I guess they are live performances - not that you'd know from the great playing!

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

Haitink's #3 is pretty good, but the best is yet to come for you, as I found him very strong in 2, 4, 6, and 8, with his 8 being one of my favorites.

I find the highlights of Haitink/LSO to be 4, 5, 7 and 8, but all the performances are at least good.

[Cosi bel do]

"only fails in the 8th and 9th" is a pretty big flaw for me.
Actually,  I don't even consider cycles recorded before the 1950s--whatever artistic merit the performances might have is swallowed up, in my ears, by the sonics.  The only set I have from before then is Toscanini, bought in the early days of CD collecting.

Having very recently acquired Karajan's last (1980s) cycle,  I think I prefer it to most others, including his 1963 set.   My chief other MI preference is Chailly.   I'd call Cluytens and Blomstedt solid, but I prefer several others, including Bohm, Bernstein and Barenboim,  to them.

When I said "fails" it meant "fails to be the best", or among the best, not fails entirely.

And by the way, this cycle, in the recent Mengelberg Decca set, is absolutely sonically astounding. Yes it is mono, and live, but it has more details and life than many stereo and numeric recordings.
The same goes for the Scherchen 1958 Eroica, which is one of the best stereo recordings I know.
I haven't listened to Chailly. I heard his 9th in concert, it was so awful I don't even wish to try

[Ken B]

My number one pick overall considering price, sound quality and performance is Zinman.

Close contenders are Cluytens, Blomstedt, Karajan 63, Gardiner.

Happily all of these are available in budget boxes.

Had Cantelli lived longer ...

[kishnevi]

When I said "fails" it meant "fails to be the best", or among the best, not fails entirely.

And by the way, this cycle, in the recent Mengelberg Decca set, is absolutely sonically astounding. Yes it is mono, and live, but it has more details and life than many stereo and numeric recordings.
The same goes for the Scherchen 1958 Eroica, which is one of the best stereo recordings I know.
I haven't listened to Chailly. I heard his 9th in concert, it was so awful I don't even wish to try

I'll keep those in mind.

I'd urge you to investigate Chailly further: he gets things out of the music a lot of other conductors don't, in terms of emotional heft, especially in the middle symphonies (something, btw, he fails to do with his recent Brahms set).  The Ninth was not the strongest part of the cycle,  but I certainly wouldn't call it awful.

[Cosi bel do]

I'll keep those in mind.

I'd urge you to investigate Chailly further: he gets things out of the music a lot of other conductors don't, in terms of emotional heft, especially in the middle symphonies (something, btw, he fails to do with his recent Brahms set).  The Ninth was not the strongest part of the cycle,  but I certainly wouldn't call it awful.

Well I can assure you that this concert was. It was like a routine 9th, except with a Gewandhaus orchestra sounding unusually thin, and the only interpretative ideas were thrown around, without any sense, any architecture. The finale was even more horrible, the singers (the same than in the CD if I remember well) really not good and the choir (which was Radio-France for the concert in Paris) unbearably loud and massive, without any clarity. A nightmare.

My number one pick overall considering price, sound quality and performance is Zinman.

Close contenders are Cluytens, Blomstedt, Karajan 63, Gardiner.

Happily all of these are available in budget boxes.

Had Cantelli lived longer ...

I would agree on Cluytens, Blomstedt, Karajan, and even Gardiner (excellent btw, just not top-of-the-list but that's just a personal opinion).

But Zinman ? SERIOUSLY ? ZINMAN ? I never understood what people could like in his Beethoven. There is no structure, no tension (something that a Gardiner doesn't lack at least !), and it is full of mannerisms that are just anti-Beethovenian. I still laugh thinking about this jazzy oboe solo in the 5th, really, that day, I swore I would never buy a Zinman CD anymore (well, of course I did, but my opinion did not change about his Beethoven, his Missa Solemnis is just as bad).

[Brian]

I still laugh thinking about this jazzy oboe solo in the 5th

Interesting, the flute and oboe also do lots of improvised solos in Zinman's new recording of Schubert "Great" C Major. Not jazzy, though.

[Cosi bel do]

Interesting, the flute and oboe also do lots of improvised solos in Zinman's new recording of Schubert "Great" C Major. Not jazzy, though.

Well, what I really mean is that these solos are just a fantasy of Mr. Zinman, and are really, really out of style. And what irritates me is that serious HIP musicians (Harnoncourt, Gardiner, but even Norrington is serious, even if the result was not very good) have taken decades of serious work to demonstrate that it is possible to play Beethoven as he intended, without this being a obscure attempt contrary to a kind of darwinian theory of music. And then comes a Zinman, and he does just whatever he thought about in the morning when dipping his croissant in his tea, and he gives all the arguments the anti-HIP movement needed by giving an adulterated vision of Beethoven, contrary to all musical sense.

IMHO, etc., etc.

[Ken B]

Its been a while since I listened to 5 in any recording but Zinman uses the new Del Mar edition, and there are changes in places. I'll drag it out soon.

And I second Baklavaboy on Solti's 5, which I have not heard in ages but liked a lot.

BTW, The Tafelmusik 6 is both gorgeous and unsatisfying. Very odd reading, slow slow, but incredibly beautiful playing.

[Cosi bel do]

Its been a while since I listened to 5 in any recording but Zinman uses the new Del Mar edition, and there are changes in places. I'll drag it out soon.

Gardiner and Abbado also use Del Mar.

[trung224]

I would agree on Cluytens, Blomstedt, Karajan, and even Gardiner (excellent btw, just not top-of-the-list but that's just a personal opinion).

But Zinman ? SERIOUSLY ? ZINMAN ? I never understood what people could like in his Beethoven. There is no structure, no tension (something that a Gardiner doesn't lack at least !), and it is full of mannerisms that are just anti-Beethovenian. I still laugh thinking about this jazzy oboe solo in the 5th, really, that day, I swore I would never buy a Zinman CD anymore (well, of course I did, but my opinion did not change about his Beethoven, his Missa Solemnis is just as bad).

I agree with you about Zinman. His only recording I can stand is Gorecki's  3rd Symphony. His Beethoven and Schumann, which so many listeners and critics rated highly, for me are just  a sight reading with full speed, no tension, no nuanced.

[Cosi bel do]

Yes, you're right about his Schumann, too. I once did a comparison on the 4th, and Zinman arrived last of 20 versions. And I'm sure he would have been even if there had been 50 more.

[Carnivorous Sheep]

I agree with the oboe solo in the 5th being extremely jarring and out of place.

Overall, however, I find myself enjoying Zinman. In the end, I think there's something to be said about exploring new styles of Beethoven, and as someone who simply enjoys these works immensely, I like hearing new ways of interpreting them.

I wouldn't put any of Zinman's readings on any top or best-of lists, but I find them enjoyable to listen to now and then, and they're sometimes exciting or vibrant in a way that's unconventional enough to be fresh. There are over-ambitious moments, like the aforementioned oboe solo, but it's a trade-off I guess.

Slightly tangential but I think Zinman's Schubert 4th is among my favorite recordings of the piece, and I do love that symphony very much.

[NJ Joe]

I bought Zinman when it was first released. I loved 1-4 but couldn't like anything past that, no matter how I tried. I still have the set, but it's in the "graveyard"...a box in my basement. Been there for several years now, along with Abbado 2000, and other assorted discs. Can't bring myself to sell 'em though.

As for Gardiner, it was the 2nd complete set I ever bought, after HvK '77. Bought it when it was first released, not realizing it was a period instrument performance. Love it to this day.

[North Star]

Gardiner and Abbado also use Del Mar.

Immerseel too.

[Mookalafalas]

I agree with the oboe solo in the 5th being extremely jarring and out of place.

Overall, however, I find myself enjoying Zinman. In the end, I think there's something to be said about exploring new styles of Beethoven, and as someone who simply enjoys these works immensely, I like hearing new ways of interpreting them.

I wouldn't put any of Zinman's readings on any top or best-of lists, but I find them enjoyable to listen to now and then, and they're sometimes exciting or vibrant in a way that's unconventional enough to be fresh. There are over-ambitious moments, like the aforementioned oboe solo, but it's a trade-off I guess.

Slightly tangential but I think Zinman's Schubert 4th is among my favorite recordings of the piece, and I do love that symphony very much.

  I've never heard Zinman, but I like this attitude.  Sometimes it's nice to hear something out of the pack, even if it's behind or in left field a ways--if for no other reason, when you come back to an A-lister, it may sound fresher or even new again.   I keep playing different versions of the 3rd, and am worried I will get tired of it. I wish there was a version on kazoos, or African drums or something, to "cleanse the palette", as they say with cuisine...

[aquablob]

Its been a while since I listened to 5 in any recording but Zinman uses the new Del Mar edition, and there are changes in places.

Gardiner and Abbado also use Del Mar.

Immerseel too.

...and Rattle, and Mackerras, and Goodman, and Herreweghe, and Dausgaard, and Haitink, and... well, you get the picture 

The Del Mar edition is excellent by virtually all accounts but not without its critics: http://books.google.com/books?id=pQ1PJN_KU9AC&pg=PA188

That writer (David Levy) also published a fuller critique in the journal Beethoven Forum, but as far as I can tell it's not freely available online. There followed a response from Del Mar and a final response from Levy in the same journal, and that exchange is downloadable: http://bf.press.illinois.edu/view.php?vol=10&iss=1&f=del_mar.pdf

Finally, here is a piece on early adopters of Del Mar's edition of the 9th. It includes relevant quotations on the topic from conductors like Gardiner, Mackerras, and Goodman: http://bf.press.illinois.edu/view.php?vol=10&iss=2&f=aspin.pdf

[Brian]

I am irritated that Chailly deliberately chose NOT to use the latest editions.