Benjamin Britten

[knight66]

It is kind of odd. Guilguid was arrested for oppotuning in a toilet and that was well publicised. Embarrassing for him, but ultimately it did not damage his career. Dirk Bogarde lived abroad, as he did not feel his relationship was sustainable in the UK and he was certain his career would end. However, he had been sold as a heartthrob for women fans and I should think clarity over his relationship would indeed have damaged him in a way it did not damage Guilguid.

Britten and Pears had fled to America when war broke out, (Paul Bunyan), that alone should surely have trashed their reputations. But in fact they came back and were welcomed. They lived openly, but quietly, together. And we also know that Britten had his strange relationships with boys and Pears was fairly promiscuous. Both were somewhat dangerous activities. So, it is odd that they were allowed to function quietly and not be prosecuted or persecuted.

Britten was chosen to write an opera, Gloriana, for the coronation year, he was known to be homosexual, but the work was put his way. In any case, certain members of the royal family were relaxed about the issue. The piece was frowned on and Britten was less welcome in influential circles for some time. One factor may have been the very high level connections he had with great musicians abroad. To have him publically disgraced would have put the UK in a bad light when he had advocates such as Shostakovich, Rostropovich, etc, etc. In contrast Turing worked in the shadows and there would be security implications should he have been subject to blackmail. Perhaps that is why he was victimised.

As far as I know Britten and Pears were never part of 'the scene', or move in Showbiz circles, so being so discrete I guess society could live with them and the press would get relatively little juice from outing them.

Mike

[Ken B]

It is kind of odd. Guilguid was arrested for oppotuning in a toilet and that was well publicised. Embarrassing for him, but ultimately it did not damage his career. Dirk Bogarde lived abroad, as he did not feel his relationship was sustainable in the UK and he was certain his career would end. However, he had been sold as a heartthrob for women fans and I should think clarity over his relationship would indeed have damaged him in a way it did not damage Guilguid.

Britten and Pears had fled to America when war broke out, (Paul Bunyan), that alone should surely have trashed their reputations. But in fact they came back and were welcomed. They lived openly, but quietly, together. And we also know that Britten had his strange relationships with boys and Pears was fairly promiscuous. Both were somewhat dangerous activities. So, it is odd that they were allowed to function quietly and not be prosecuted or persecuted.

Britten was chosen to write an opera, Gloriana, for the coronation year, he was known to be homosexual, but the work was put his way. In any case, certain members of the royal family were relaxed about the issue. The piece was frowned on and Britten was less welcome in influential circles for some time. One factor may have been the very high level connections he had with great musicians abroad. To have him publically disgraced would have put the UK in a bad light when he had advocates such as Shostakovich, Rostropovich, etc, etc. In contrast Turing worked in the shadows and there would be security implications should he have been subject to blackmail. Perhaps that is why he was victimised.

As far as I know Britten and Pears were never part of 'the scene', or move in Showbiz circles, so being so discrete I guess society could live with them and the press would get relatively little juice from outing them.

Mike

Thanks. I guess not being part of the era it's a bit hard to parse the finer points of its double standards.

[knight66]

Yes and British society was and is good on double standards.

Mike

[snyprrr]

Britten had his strange relationships with boys...So, it is odd that they were allowed to function quietly and not be prosecuted or persecuted.

I think we can see now after all the revelations of paedophiliae emanating the highest echelons of the British Ruling Class and religious leaders... and soccer coaches... and TV personalities... and famous singers... and MPs... and... and...and...


and when you say "strange relationships with boys", you mean, like, raping them, right? oy vey

[snyprrr]

Ain't Shittin', It's Britten

[knight66]

I think we can see now after all the revelations of paedophiliae emanating the highest echelons of the British Ruling Class and religious leaders... and soccer coaches... and TV personalities... and famous singers... and MPs... and... and...and...


and when you say "strange relationships with boys", you mean, like, raping them, right? oy vey

Actually no, I don't mean that. He seems to have had very unhealthy relationships with a string of boys, but the trauma they were left with, and it was damaging, is when he dumped them the instant their voices broke. The best friend suddenly cast them out of paradise and never communicated with them again. Up until the brutal severance he seems to have acted as their favourite uncle and close friend showering them with gifts and attention. I made the same assumptions that you did, but the biographers dug into this area extensively and got the same story over and over again. The actor David Hemings was one of the favourites and his story is in line with all the others.

I have seen a letter he sent to one boy, icky and had I been the lad's parent and seen it, that would have been the end of it. But it is dripping in romantic language and idealises the boy, it is not suggestive.

Mike

[Ken B]

Actually no, I don't mean that. He seems to have had very unhealthy relationships with a string of boys, but the trauma they were left with, and it was damaging, is when he dumped them the instant their voices broke. The best friend suddenly cast them out of paradise and never communicated with them again. Up until the brutal severance he seems to have acted as their favourite uncle and close friend showering them with gifts and attention. I made the same assumptions that you did, but the biographers dug into this area extensively and got the same story over and over again. The actor David Hemings was one of the favourites and his story is in line with all the others.

I have seen a letter he sent to one boy, icky and had I been the lad's parent and seen it, that would have been the end of it. But it is dripping in romantic language and idealises the boy, it is not suggestive.

Mike

That is what I read too. Wasn't the tenor Robert Tear another? Anyway, no sex, just an odd but somehow impersonal obsession.

[Mirror Image]

Let's get back to the music shall we? What does everyone think of Death in Venice? For me, it's the ultimate Britten experience. There's so much that's ambiguous about it but there's also this underlying troubled, and haunted, aspect within the music that I find utterly mesmerizing. There aren't a lot of recordings of the work, but which one would you guys recommend? Personally, I find no fault with any of the versions I've heard, but I love Hickox's on Chandos.

[knight66]

MI, This is not a criticism at all, but it is a real irony that you start with, well back to the music, then raise Death in Venice as the discussion point. There is no piece that explores the composer's obsession with young boys more than that opera. And it is part and parcel of what was discussed above. In all likelihood it would not have been composed without it.

I am not interested in extending endlessly what obsessed Britten. But as you in part say, the ambiguity, the shimmering mirage like quality and the love without consumption are all about him and his passions. The book has a theme of exploring how someone who seemed impervious to love and had no real access to his emotions is devastated by the senses, the sense of beauty sweeps through him and it enebles him to asses his repressed self through the senses, not through intellect. Britten is fairly unflinching in the way he brings this all onto the stage as a personal testimony.

As with Turn of the Screw, I admire it, but am made uncomfortable watching it unfold.

Have you seen the piece, even on DVD?

Ken, I did not know that about Tear, but he certainly was happy to work with Britten as a mature artist. That feeds into our take on how Britten behaved.

Mike

[Ken B]

To follow up on Mike's last. D in V is a favourite book of mine. The connections to Britten's personal life are obviously strong. I doubt you will ever see a discussion of his setting of DiV that doesn't mention it.

I have not heard the whole thing. I disliked what I heard, just as music, and stopped.

PS my memory erred, it wasn't Tear, it was Michael Crawford I was thinking of.

[Mirror Image]

MI, This is not a criticism at all, but it is a real irony that you start with, well back to the music, then raise Death in Venice as the discussion point. There is no piece that explores the composer's obsession with young boys more than that opera. And it is part and parcel of what was discussed above. In all likelihood it would not have been composed without it.

I am not interested in extending endlessly what obsessed Britten. But as you in part say, the ambiguity, the shimmering mirage like quality and the love without consumption are all about him and his passions. The book has a theme of exploring how someone who seemed impervious to love and had no real access to his emotions is devastated by the senses, the sense of beauty sweeps through him and it enebles him to asses his repressed self through the senses, not through intellect. Britten is fairly unflinching in the way he brings this all onto the stage as a personal testimony.

As with Turn of the Screw, I admire it, but am made uncomfortable watching it unfold.

Have you seen the piece, even on DVD?

Ken, I did not know that about Tear, but he certainly was happy to work with Britten as a mature artist. That feeds into our take on how Britten behaved.

Mike

I suppose it was rather ironic that I chose this work to discuss given it's allusive subject matter. One thing that really attracted me to this particular opera was the gamelan influence in the music. Absolutely enchanting. Have you seen the Bridcut documentary Britten's Endgame? It helps shed some light on Britten's last years and discusses Death in Venice (among other late masterpieces).

[Mirror Image]

This is an interesting interview:

https://www.youtube.com/v/41uBCBzsz2U

[knight66]

I suppose it was rather ironic that I chose this work to discuss given it's allusive subject matter. One thing that really attracted me to this particular opera was the gamelan influence in the music. Absolutely enchanting. Have you seen the Bridcut documentary Britten's Endgame? It helps shed some light on Britten's last years and discusses Death in Venice (among other late masterpieces).

Thanks, I have not seen it, I will watch the link. Britten often went to a percussionist and instrument maker called, I think, James Blades. Together they developed a number of instruments that woud produce sounds that Britten wanted. These ranged from blocks of wood struck by different implements to gongs and metal bars. Britten became very interested in far eastern musical instruments, but instead of automatically writing them all into scores, he sometimes used the authentic sounds as a springboard for something new, enter Mr Blades.

Mike

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

This is an interesting interview:

https://www.youtube.com/v/41uBCBzsz2U

Ah yes, this is a good interview! I feel I really understand when he talks about writing FOR musicians (or for events and things) because it certainly does help inspire a new composition.

[cilgwyn]

Let's get back to the music shall we? What does everyone think of Death in Venice? For me, it's the ultimate Britten experience. There's so much that's ambiguous about it but there's also this underlying troubled, and haunted, aspect within the music that I find utterly mesmerizing. There aren't a lot of recordings of the work, but which one would you guys recommend? Personally, I find no fault with any of the versions I've heard, but I love Hickox's on Chandos.

I bought that after reading some of your enthusiastic posts. I got the old Decca set as I have all the other recordings,except Billy Budd,which is a bit more pricey;and I find  the subject matter less appealing (although I remember enjoying it on some old library Lp's). Yes,I think this is one of his most compelling operas. I'll have to listen to it again though before I can really post comments here. I would certainly place it with The Rape of Lucretia and The Turn of the Screw and probably even higher,because of the fascinating effects Britten creates and his use of the orchestra...........and the setting. What could be better?!!

People make claims for the operas of Vaughan Williams and Delius,with respect to an operatic tradition before Britten,but as full of lovely music as they are,there is no dramatic instinct. I think the best way to listen to a VW or Delius opera is to just let the music wash over you and forget about the libretto. Britten is the first British opera composer who holds my attention and doesn't leave my eyes wandering periodically towards the cd track timing,Purcell's only true opera aside,and Havergal Brian's The Tigers,for some wierd reason!! Holst's Savitri is nice and short. The subject matter is not exactly fun,though!! Another opera I find strangely fascinating to listen to is Tippet's Midsummer Marriage. Not sure about the libretto,though?!!

[Mirror Image]

I bought that after reading some of your enthusiastic posts. I got the old Decca set as I have all the other recordings,except Billy Budd,which is a bit more pricey;and I find  the subject matter less appealing (although I remember enjoying it on some old library Lp's). Yes,I think this is one of his most compelling operas. I'll have to listen to it again though before I can really post comments here. I would certainly place it with The Rape of Lucretia and The Turn of the Screw and probably even higher,because of the fascinating effects Britten creates and his use of the orchestra...........and the setting. What could be better?!!

People make claims for the operas of Vaughan Williams and Delius,with respect to an operatic tradition before Britten,but as full of lovely music as they are,there is no dramatic instinct. I think the best way to listen to a VW or Delius opera is to just let the music wash over you and forget about the libretto. Britten is the first British opera composer who holds my attention and doesn't leave my eyes wandering periodically towards the cd track timing,Purcell's only true opera aside,and Havergal Brian's The Tigers,for some wierd reason!! Holst's Savitri is nice and short. The subject matter is not exactly fun,though!! Another opera I find strangely fascinating to listen to is Tippet's Midsummer Marriage. Not sure about the libretto,though?!!

I certainly agree with you about Britten being a much more dramatic composer than Delius, but, of course, RVW excelled in orchestral music and he included plenty of drama there for sure. But when talking just about opera, there's no question that Britten is the best Brit to ever tackle the medium. One thorough listen to Death in Venice can affirm this rather quickly.

[cilgwyn]

Agreed! The operas of VW and Delius have their merits and I certainly don't wish to be disparaging about them as some people obviously get allot of pleasure from them. I rather like A Village Romeo and Juliet. It has an odd atmosphere of it's own. which I find appealing when I'm in the right mood. Vaughan Williams operas have some lovely music but they do go on a bit. Curiously,my favourite VW is possibly The Poisoned Kiss,where he seems to have been inspired by Sullivan. Throwing away operatic pretensions may have helped. A pity about the libretto! After all this Britten's operas feel so tightly constructed. He knows exactly what he wants. There's no note spinning. His dramatic instinct just draws you into the drama and keeps your attention right through to the end. He also chooses interesting subject matter,exploring interesting themes and ideas that have a universal appeal. His orchestration is always compelling. Yes,just listening to Death in Venice. There is no comparison. I must listen to it again asap;but I'm going to have someone in here painting the house,soon!

[Mirror Image]

Agreed! The operas of VW and Delius have their merits and I certainly don't wish to be disparaging about them as some people obviously get allot of pleasure from them. I rather like A Village Romeo and Juliet. It has an odd atmosphere of it's own. which I find appealing when I'm in the right mood. Vaughan Williams operas have some lovely music but they do go on a bit. Curiously,my favourite VW is possibly The Poisoned Kiss,where he seems to have been inspired by Sullivan. Throwing away operatic pretensions may have helped. A pity about the libretto! After all this Britten's operas feel so tightly constructed. He knows exactly what he wants. There's no note spinning. His dramatic instinct just draws you into the drama and keeps your attention right through to the end. He also chooses interesting subject matter,exploring interesting themes and ideas that have a universal appeal. His orchestration is always compelling. Yes,just listening to Death in Venice. There is no comparison. I must listen to it again asap;but I'm going to have someone in here painting the house,soon!

Have you seen the John Bridcut documentary titled Britten's Endgame? This will be right up your alley as Death in Venice is discussed for some length and helped shed some light on this troubled work for me:

[asin]B00FRVEKHQ[/asin]

[DaveF]

I got the old Decca set as I have all the other recordings,except Billy Budd,which is a bit more pricey...

People make claims for the operas of Vaughan Williams and Delius,with respect to an operatic tradition before Britten,but as full of lovely music as they are,there is no dramatic instinct.

You can have them all (although not including the Church Parables, sadly) from am.uk for less than £25:

[asin]B00FE1UMY4[/asin]

without libretti, of course, but I find Britten's word-setting so clear that this isn't really a problem.  Doubt you'd get much for selling your old sets these days, though.

Agreed about VW & Delius, with the honourable exception (for me) of Hugh the Drover - a fight over a woman, a planned elopement, a will-he-won't-he hang - great drama.

[cilgwyn]

Have you seen the John Bridcut documentary titled Britten's Endgame? This will be right up your alley as Death in Venice is discussed for some length and helped shed some light on this troubled work for me:

[asin]B00FRVEKHQ[/asin]

Thanks for the recommendation. I'm going to have to cut down on my collecting for a bit,though,after recent splurges!! I'll keep this in mind,though! It certainly is a fascinating opera. More so than some of those numerous ones featuring heroes and heroines stabbing each other and all the usual operatic waffle. I think I'll hang onto my fat box Decca opera sets though,DaveF. Although,I'd probably save some room here!! As to Hugh the Drover? Yes,that plotline has a certain appeal. There is some really lovely music in that opera,somewhere! I find it mildly interesting that The Bartered Bride,which VW wished to emulate,has largely disappeared from the repertoire here. It used to pretty ubiquitous with small opera companies,particularly amateur ones and schools. I can't even remember the last time I saw a mention of it! And,come to think of it,whatever it's flaws,I think VW's plot is more fun?!!