Purchases Today

[AnotherSpin]

Nice. I may be the rabid Wagnerian, Boulezian, and all that, but I adore Bellini. Seeing La Sonnambula live (with the extraordinary Nadine Serra) last winter was wonderful!

I also visited the museum at Bellini's birth house in Catania years ago. That was lovely...

Love Wagner too, for various reasons. The music, the ideas, the stance. It's also a matter of time and maturity. Wagner is for adults. I once listened to Bellini with pleasure, thirty or forty years ago. I listened to Verdi for a long, long time. Wagner seemed difficult then. Time has passed and Bellini is seen as a curio, there is no time to listen to it now. It's almost the same with Verdi, sometimes, extremely rarely. It's Wagner now, in any length, more and more, with ever-increasing interest. Not with Boulez though, my Wagner is mostly in earlier recordings, pre-Solti.

[Florestan]

$400 on Amazon! I hope you paid less!

That's crazy! My regular sources are much, much, much cheaper.

[Florestan]

I confess that during my one experience of the Ring cycle, my favourite bit of almost every Act was the first music before the singers came in and ruined it. 

As far as I am concerned, Tchaikovsky hit the nail on Wagner's head with surgical precision.

...a pure symphonist who is infatuated with orchestral effects and is for their sake willing to sacrifice both the beauty of the human voice and the expressive qualities which are inherent in it.

...

Is all of this Wagnerian propaganda not simply lamentable quixotry, more apt to kill rather than to revive vocal music, and which prevents Wagner's tremendous symphonic talent from revealing itself in its true splendour and in a musical genre which would be more congenial to his artistic nature?

Someone who in the past was very close to Wagner told me what he had once heard from the composer in a moment of frankness between good friends: "How I sometimes wish I could sit down to write a string quartet or a symphony—but I can't, for it is my duty not to step out of the boundaries of opera music!"

With these few words Wagner makes it clear to what extent a preconceived theory can lead astray a stubborn German who, whilst he may be admirably earnest and serious, is nevertheless endowed with a limited mental horizon .

(emphasis mine)

Read the whole thing here: https://en.tchaikovsky-research.net/pages/The_Third_and_Fourth_Symphony_Concerts_of_the_Russian_Musical_Society._The_Italian_Opera

[AnotherSpin]

As far as I am concerned, Tchaikovsky hit the nail on Wagner's head with surgical precision.

...a pure symphonist who is infatuated with orchestral effects and is for their sake willing to sacrifice both the beauty of the human voice and the expressive qualities which are inherent in it.

...

Is all of this Wagnerian propaganda not simply lamentable quixotry, more apt to kill rather than to revive vocal music, and which prevents Wagner's tremendous symphonic talent from revealing itself in its true splendour and in a musical genre which would be more congenial to his artistic nature?

Someone who in the past was very close to Wagner told me what he had once heard from the composer in a moment of frankness between good friends: "How I sometimes wish I could sit down to write a string quartet or a symphony—but I can't, for it is my duty not to step out of the boundaries of opera music!"

With these few words Wagner makes it clear to what extent a preconceived theory can lead astray a stubborn German who, whilst he may be admirably earnest and serious, is nevertheless endowed with a limited mental horizon .

(emphasis mine)

Read the whole thing here: https://en.tchaikovsky-research.net/pages/The_Third_and_Fourth_Symphony_Concerts_of_the_Russian_Musical_Society._The_Italian_Opera

Why not quote the very beginning of the text:"At the present time Wagner is without any doubt the most prominent personality on the horizon of the European musical world."

[Madiel]

As far as I am concerned, Tchaikovsky hit the nail on Wagner's head with surgical precision.

...a pure symphonist who is infatuated with orchestral effects and is for their sake willing to sacrifice both the beauty of the human voice and the expressive qualities which are inherent in it.

...

Is all of this Wagnerian propaganda not simply lamentable quixotry, more apt to kill rather than to revive vocal music, and which prevents Wagner's tremendous symphonic talent from revealing itself in its true splendour and in a musical genre which would be more congenial to his artistic nature?

Someone who in the past was very close to Wagner told me what he had once heard from the composer in a moment of frankness between good friends: "How I sometimes wish I could sit down to write a string quartet or a symphony—but I can't, for it is my duty not to step out of the boundaries of opera music!"

With these few words Wagner makes it clear to what extent a preconceived theory can lead astray a stubborn German who, whilst he may be admirably earnest and serious, is nevertheless endowed with a limited mental horizon .

(emphasis mine)

Read the whole thing here: https://en.tchaikovsky-research.net/pages/The_Third_and_Fourth_Symphony_Concerts_of_the_Russian_Musical_Society._The_Italian_Opera

Well that was all very fun...

To be honest I'm not sufficiently familiar with either Wagner or Tchaikovsky to really tell you what I think of the merits of that viewpoint.

It certainly seems to have been a period of history where people had Views about what music was for and what sort of music had merit.

Not that we're entirely immune from that sort of thinking today. I was only saying earlier today, in a slightly different context, how frustrating I find it when people criticise a musical work for not doing something it isn't even trying to do. It's one thing to criticise a dramatic work for not succeeding as a drama, but to make the same criticism of dance music would be silly.

[Florestan]

Well that was all very fun...

To be honest I'm not sufficiently familiar with either Wagner or Tchaikovsky to really tell you what I think of the merits of that viewpoint.

My incompatibility with Wagner is profound and irreconcilable. Everything about me, my personality, my outlook on life, my musical aesthetic, is utterly different from, and totally opposed to, everything he stands for, both in music and thought.

On the other hand, Tchaikovsky is in my Top 5.

[Madiel]

My incompatibility with Wagner is profound and irreconcilable. Everything about me, my personality, my outlook on life, my musical aesthetic, is utterly different from, and totally opposed to, everything he stands for, both in music and thought.

On the other hand, Tchaikovsky is in my Top 5.

This news is not shocking.

[Florestan]

This news is not shocking.

 

[ritter]

My incompatibility with Wagner is profound and irreconcilable. Everything about me, my personality, my outlook on life, my musical aesthetic, is utterly different from, and totally opposed to, everything he stands for, both in music and thought.

On the other hand, Tchaikovsky is in my Top 5.

Just interchange the composer names in your post, and that would be 100% me... 

[Florestan]

Just interchange the composer names in your post, and that would be 100% me... 

This isn't surprising news either. 

What is truly surprising is how well we two get along.     

[Spotted Horses]

Paul Lewis, Beethoven Collection including Piano Sonatas, Concerti and Diabelli Variations.



I really liked Paul Lewis' recording of the late Piano Works of Brahms, and seeing this at a very attractive price found it hard to resist. (Availability of this limited edition seems to be spotty at the moment, perhaps  still being distributed in the UK.)

[Brian]

Why not quote the very beginning of the text:"At the present time Wagner is without any doubt the most prominent personality on the horizon of the European musical world."

I do not have an opinion in the debate, but I do have experience writing reviews and this is the kind of setup that comes right before the attack. It's a way of heightening your critique but also making you, as an author, look more courageous.

Like, now I mostly review restaurants, so I might say, "X is undoubtedly the most prominent, attention getting new restaurant in Texas. But the food is terrible." 

[Florestan]

I do not have an opinion in the debate, but I do have experience writing reviews and this is the kind of setup that comes right before the attack. It's a way of heightening your critique but also making you, as an author, look more courageous.

Like, now I mostly review restaurants, so I might say, "X is undoubtedly the most prominent, attention getting new restaurant in Texas. But the food is terrible." 

Ha ha, exactly. Tchaikovsky's message is absolutely similar: "Wagner is the most prominent, attention-getting composer today. His music, though, is terrible." 

[ritter]

Ha ha, exactly. Tchaikovsky's message is absolutely similar: "Wagner is the most prominent, attention-getting composer today. His music, though, is terrible." 

O ciel, che noia!

[Spotted Horses]

Ha ha, exactly. Tchaikovsky's message is absolutely similar: "Wagner is the most prominent, attention-getting composer today. His music, though, is terrible." 

Mr Tchaikovsky also characterized Brahms a talentless hack, as I recall.

[Florestan]

Mr Tchaikovsky also characterized Brahms a talentless hack, as I recall.

"Scoundrel", "giftless swine" and "conceited mediocrity", to be precise. Such compliments, though, he wrote only in his private diaries. In his public statements he was much more moderate, although still dismissive --- and, in any case, he and Brahms got drunk together more than once.

https://en.tchaikovsky-research.net/pages/Johannes_Brahms

[AnotherSpin]

I do not have an opinion in the debate, but I do have experience writing reviews and this is the kind of setup that comes right before the attack. It's a way of heightening your critique but also making you, as an author, look more courageous.

Like, now I mostly review restaurants, so I might say, "X is undoubtedly the most prominent, attention getting new restaurant in Texas. But the food is terrible." 

The quotes cited by another contributor to the discussion were taken out of context. There is a link and one can get a better impression after reading. You can also look at the dates. Tchaikovsky's article published in 1872, a few years before the premiere of the Ring, or years before the premiere of Parsifal. Of course, Tchaikovsky had secured an invitation and hurried to attend the premiere of the Ring in Bayreuth in 1876. He understood where the real music is. Other important guests at the premiere, including Bruckner, Liszt and Grieg, also understood this.

[AnotherSpin]

Mr Tchaikovsky also characterized Brahms a talentless hack, as I recall.

It is well known that Tchaikovsky's music was also not approved by all of his contemporaries. From Wikipedia: "Of the foreign critics who did not care for his music, Eduard Hanslick lambasted the Violin Concerto as a musical composition "whose stink one can hear" and William Forster Abtrop wrote of the Fifth Symphony, "The furious peroration sounds like nothing so much as a horde of demons struggling in a torrent of brandy, the music growing drunker and drunker. Pandemonium, delirium tremens, raving, and above all, noise worse confounded!"

To what extent this can serve as a nail on Tchaikovsky's head is a matter of personal taste. I think he was not so hopeless. Not Wagner's level, of course, still some pretty tunes here and there.

[JBS]

Paul Lewis, Beethoven Collection including Piano Sonatas, Concerti and Diabelli Variations.



I really liked Paul Lewis' recording of the late Piano Works of Brahms, and seeing this at a very attractive price found it hard to resist. (Availability of this limited edition seems to be spotty at the moment, perhaps  still being distributed in the UK.)

I have the Sonatas in their original issues, and the Diabellis, but not the Concertos.
I think the Sonatas are very good, the Diabellis good but not outstanding.
All his Schubert is worth having.
Addendum 1: I also like his recording of the Bagatelles (which came after your set was released).
Addendum 2:  Just ordered. No good reason not to have this since I like his other recordings, and used copies are relatively cheap on Amazon MP.

[JBS]

The quotes cited by another contributor to the discussion were taken out of context. There is a link and one can get a better impression after reading. You can also look at the dates. Tchaikovsky's article published in 1872, a few years before the premiere of the Ring, or years before the premiere of Parsifal. Of course, Tchaikovsky had secured an invitation and hurried to attend the premiere of the Ring in Bayreuth in 1876. He understood where the real music is. Other important guests at the premiere, including Bruckner, Liszt and Grieg, also understood this.

I recently saw on Twitter a quote from Tchaikovsky's letter to his brother immediately after hearing that first performance of Gotterdammerung. I don't remember the exact wording, but it was along the lines of "My God, that was excruciating! And how long it was! I couldn't wait for it to finally end!"