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[atardecer]

With Wagner, I find a lot of great music. For me an issue I have is not so much the length or the singing versus the orchestral parts, but the over all feel. For me there seems to be too much bleakness and pessimism. It is like taking in Schopenhauer in musical form. Schopenhauer like Wagner had some brilliant insights but on the whole I think he projected a lot of his own neuroticisms and I find his world view troubling.

[AnotherSpin]

I recently saw on Twitter a quote from Tchaikovsky's letter to his brother immediately after hearing that first performance of Gotterdammerung. I don't remember the exact wording, but it was along the lines of "My God, that was excruciating! And how long it was! I couldn't wait for it to finally end!"

Yes, it's very Russian. Striving to get something without considering the costs and all other expenses, and then shitting all over it.

Tchaikovsky had a lot of bad things to say about Wagner. Envy probably played a role here. Not to mention that composers do not have to agree on everything and have the same ideas.

Shortly before his death, in 1892, Tchaikovsky admitted in a published interview: "For a long time Wagner was the only major composer of the German school. This man of genius, from whose overwhelming influence not one of the European composers of the second half of our century has been able to escape, stood there in splendid isolation, so to speak. And just as was the case during his life-time, now, too, there is nobody who could replace him."

https://en.tchaikovsky-research.net/pages/Richard_Wagner#:~:text=By%20the%20way%2C%20in%20all,3%20and%205–8%5D.

[AnotherSpin]

With Wagner, I find a lot of great music. For me an issue I have is not so much the length or the singing versus the orchestral parts, but the over all feel. For me there seems to be too much bleakness and pessimism. It is like taking in Schopenhauer in musical form. Schopenhauer like Wagner had some brilliant insights but on the whole I think he projected a lot of his own neuroticisms and I find his world view troubling.

I suppose it's the other way round. The world's troubles are brought on by materialists convinced of progress.

[atardecer]

I suppose it's the other way round. The world's troubles are brought on by materialists convinced of progress.

Well, I think there is some truth to that. My reaction to Wagner may be partly projection on my part (I wonder to what extent that can be avoided). His musical personality doesn't seem to click with my personality, but that is a rather subjective thing. At some point I will likely try listening again and see if anything has changed.

[AnotherSpin]

Well, I think there is some truth to that. My reaction to Wagner may be partly projection on my part (I wonder to what extent that can be avoided). His musical personality doesn't seem to click with my personality, but that is a rather subjective thing. At some point I will likely try listening again and see if anything has changed.

The beauty of it is that everyone hears their own Wagner. Mine is filled with glorious idealism and I don't hear anything negative, rather the opposite. I don't see anything wrong in the fact that the material world is doomed. There is no slightest doubt, everything that has arisen will inevitably disappear. By the way reading Schopenhauer has always been liberating, leaving me at peace. 

[Florestan]

Tchaikovsky, letter to Taneyev, 1891:

I can only be stirred by subjects which involve real living people, who feel just as I do. That is why I cannot stand Wagnerian subjects, in which there is nothing human

Tchaikovsky, Letter to Vladimir Davydov, 1889:

When all is said and done, Wagner (I am speaking of the author of the tetralogy, not about the composer of "Lohengrin") cannot appeal to a Russian person. These German gods with their Valhallaesque squabbles and impossibly long-winded dramatic gibberish must inevitably just seem ridiculous to a Frenchman, an Italian, or a Russian. As for the music, in which wondrous symphonic episodes cannot make up for the monstrosity and artificiality of the vocal aspect of these musical freaks, that can surely only depress people. But just as is happening in France and in Italy, I am sure that the vile breed of Wagnerians will also make headway in our country, too. If all these attacks on Wagner surprise you, I should like to make it clear to you that I think very highly of Wagner's creative genius, but detest Wagnerism as a principle and cannot overcome my disgust at Wagner's manner in his late works...

Tchaikovsky, letter to Nadezhda von Meck, 1884:

Wagner, as I see it, killed his tremendous creative power through theory. Every preconceived theory cools one's spontaneous creative feeling. Could Wagner give himself up to such a feeling any longer after he had grasped through reason some sort of peculiar theory of music drama and musical truth, and after he had voluntarily renounced, for the sake of this alleged truth, all that constituted the strength and beauty of his predecessors' music?! If in an opera the singers don't sing, but merely utter, accompanied by deafening thunder from the orchestra, various hastily grafted-on, colourless successions of notes against a background of a splendid, but incoherent and formless symphony, what kind of opera can that possibly be?! However, what really astonishes me is the earnestness with which this over-philosophizing German illustrates by means of music the most incredibly stupid subjects. I mean, who could possibly be moved by the plot of Parsifal, where, instead of people with temperaments and feelings that we are familiar with, we are shown various fairytale figures who might perhaps be suitable for embellishing the content of a ballet, but never that of a drama? I am surprised that anyone can listen, without succumbing to laughter, or rather to boredom, to these figures' endlessly long monologues about the various spells from which all these Kundrys, Parsifals, etc. are suffering!!! I mean, is it possible to empathize with them, to be filled with heartfelt sympathy for them, to love and hate them? Of course not — because their sufferings, feelings, triumphs or failures are utterly alien to us. And what is alien to the human heart cannot be the source of musical inspiration


And with that I rest my case. À bon entendeur, salut!

(And I very much doubt that Tchaikovsky, a very succesful and popular composer in his own time, not only in Russia, but in Europe and America too, would have had anything to envy Wagner, who was far from enjoying the same measure of popularity.)

[AnotherSpin]

Do we need plentiful streams of words and quotations to see that Tchaikovsky was jealous of Wagner's success? From Tchaikovsky letter to Vladimir Davydov, March 1889:

"Unfortunately, in Russia, judging from letters [I've received], the newspapers in the two capitals are continuing to ignore me, and apart from people close to me nobody seems to care anything about my successes. In contrast, the local newspapers here every day publish long telegrams with all the details about how Wagner's operas are being staged in Saint Petersburg [during February–March 1889, Angelo Neumann's touring opera company put on the Ring cycle at the Mariinsky Theatre — its first performance in Russia]. Of course, I am no Wagner, but still it is desirable that people in our country should know how cordially I'm being welcomed by the Germans."

For whatever reasons, Tchaikovsky was incapable of understanding the symbolic, philosophical and religious content of Wagner's complex works. The limit of Tchaikovsky's ability to grasp was not the most complex or lengthy Italian operas, with short arias and simple funny plots.

Well, Tchaikovsky is not original in his confusion and rejection of Wagner. Most people agree with him. High art is not for everyone, Wagner requires effort. It's not Taylor Swift, by any means.

[Florestan]

High art is not for everyone, Wagner requires effort. It's not Taylor Swift, by any means.

There is no *high* and *low* art, there is only art, which is defined neither by length nor by subject-matter nor by dfficulty but by execution and can take lots of forms, from a three-minute pop song to a four-hour opera and everything in between.

This dogmatic, intolerant elitism is one of the most repulsive features of the Wagnerian cult.

[AnotherSpin]

There is no *high* and *low* art, there is only art, which is defined neither by length nor by subject-matter nor by dfficulty but by execution and can take lots of forms, from a three-minute pop song to a four-hour opera and everything in between.

This dogmatic, intolerant elitism is one of the most repulsive features of the Wagnerian cult.

What?

[JBS]

Pre-order from Amazon
[US release date is September 8]

Cancelled this this morning when Amazon announced they wouldn't ship it until mid October (although the item page still promised delivery "September 9th-11th).

[JBS]

In more pleasant things, an order from Arkivmusic.


The last CD is clarinet concertos by Stamitz bracketed by Haydn's concerti for lira organizatto.

[Todd]

$12 for 17 discs of music.  OK, so I have the Minnaar LvB PC concerto cycle, so it ups the price to a princely $0.85 per disc equivalent.  Ouch.

[DavidW]

$12 for 17 discs of music.  OK, so I have the Minnaar LvB PC concerto cycle, so it ups the price to a princely $0.85 per disc equivalent.  Ouch.

That is my favorite LvB symphony cycle, Andre/Calaf's as well.  I paid quite a bit more for it and don't regret it.  It has a very uniquely take on quasi-HIP and sounds fresh and vibrant and full of character without being gimmicky or odd.

[JBS]

[Florestan]

My 19th complete set. Hat tip to @Wanderer.

[Spotted Horses]

At $4.99 for 9 discs, hard to resist.



Out of curiosity I checked to see what presto was charging for it. $126 for the FLAC download. It pays to shop around.

[vers la flamme]

At $4.99 for 9 discs, hard to resist.



Out of curiosity I checked to see what presto was charging for it. $126 for the FLAC download. It pays to shop around.

Where?

[JBS]

Where?

Don't know about the DL but there's an Amazon MP dealer offering a new physical copy for about $15US--but he seems to have an above average percentage of complaints, so I didn't pull the trigger. But if you're not as risk averse as I am...

TD
I did pull the trigger on these at Presto: CPE Bach by Jarrett, Faure by Hamelin, Noskowski by Wit.

[Spotted Horses]

Where?

Qobuz download store. No subscription necessary

[vers la flamme]

Qobuz download store. No subscription necessary

Nice. I'll listen to the previews and see what I think. Not that I need another Beethoven cycle.