CDR alert (burn-to-order CDRs sold "as" CDs)

[Octave]

No idea if this is the least bit relevant or useful to anyone; I certainly don't want to be any more like the "titular" (ahem) Ben Stiller character in the movie GREENBERG than I have to. 

I for one am really annoyed if I pay any price, especially full price, for a compact disc that ends up being a burn-to-order CDR (compact disc recordable) instead of a redbook-standard compact disc, if there is no clear indication of this fact before ordering.  It's in the interest of parties profiting from this practice to make such irritation look like a hissy fit, but that's just cynical maneuvering on their part: if they choose to provide different media for their own convenience, flexibility, and profit, they should clearly indicate this to the consumer.  Ahead of time.  It's actually a pretty cool idea in terms of keeping things available for the convenience of the consumer/listener/connoisseur....hefty pricing aside ($17+ for a CDR from Arkiv?), I actually think it's a really neat idea.  What I don't like is the weird, almost aggressive evasiveness with which these items are presented, or not, as very possibly inferior and less-durable alternatives to redbook-standard compact discs.  In fact they are media that are imprinted by different means, so make clear what the consumer is purchasing.  Even using blarney terminology like "ArkivCD" is really not too honest...it's hardly even toeing the line of honesty.

Anyway, if you've been "burned" (ahem), feel free to post the item/vendor here in this thread.  I've already written more than I ever will again about this matter; from now on I'll just pass on information as it comes.  Hopefully after today I won't have to post in this thread ever again.

[Octave]

I just bought a "new" copy of this item published by the Metronome UK label; the vendor was Avatar, an Amazon US-MP seller who have been responsive and polite to me in the past.  However, this is the second CDR item in the past several months from Avatar; the previous one was a Nielsen symphonies cycle from Danacord, which I will list below.

[asin]B000024G55[/asin]
Dunstaple: MUSICAN TO THE PLANTAGENETS

[asin]B000025W5V[/asin]
Carl Nielsen: SIX SYMPHONIES - HISTORIC COLLECTION VOL. 1 (Danacord, 3cd)
dir. Tuxen, Jensen, Grøndahl

I took up the Nielsen issue directly with the Danacord label, who acted guilty and accused me of overreacting, which I responded to by asking why they didn't simply indicate the nature of the media for prospective buyers, even as well as Arkiv does.  I was refunded the (apparent) full amount usually charged for the item, plus actual compact discs of the item were mailed to me.
I inquired with Avatar about a couple items after the Nielsen before buying them (checking to see if they were CDRs), especially when I knew that the labels in question had used licensed burn-to-order CDRs and indicated so on Amazon product pages (Col Legno, etc), and everything was fine; I started to feel like I was being a nuisance, so I didn't inquire about the Dunstaple, and ta-da, I got burnt.
I sent an email to Avatar, and here's a short portion of what I received by way of reply:

Classical is unfortunately not something I know much about and apart from your queries into particular items we haven't had any other queries from anyone else regarding this issue. Partly because we don't sell much classical at all on the smaller labels. The bigger labels like Deutsche Gramaphon or Decca still sell well and most classical we sell is sold on the major labels. I have forwarded your complaint to the label. I think what will happen over the coming months is that 99% of classical music recordings will disappear from a physical format altogether. They simply don't sell enough. We are under contract to sell particular labels for now but when this runs out we won't be selling them either - we certainly don't make a profit from selling them as the numbers are too small.

The response is not B.S.; it's actually pretty straight-forward, and maybe not even totally off the mark.  (Though something tells me that it's precisely the small labels that will keep hard media editions alive after, maybe even long after, the big labels pitch in the towel.)  My irritation is probably better reserved for Metronome (which probably means Nimbus/Wyastone, who it seems handled the duplication for Danacord) than for Avatar. 

Anyway, caveat emptor.

[Octave]

Finally, I should mention something everyone probably knows, which is that "new" items from Nimbus, at least from their back catalog---including "new release" reissue boxes of old material from the catalog, originally released as single discs---are often if not always CDR, and not advertised as such.  I won't reproduce my unpleasant correspondence with Nimbus/Wyastone HQ here, but the following items are examples of CDRs I received.

[asin]B000042NZU[/asin]
Z.M. Dagar: RAGA YAMAN + RAGA SHUDDHA TODI (Nimbus, 2cd)

[asin]B0041XSB7G[/asin]
Lou Harrison: MUSIC FOR ORCHESTRA, ENSEMBLE AND GAMELAN (Nimbus, 4cd)

Most "new" copies of New Albion label releases will also be CDRs, though since I got burned buying the following item, it seems Amazon has taken to indicating the media used on the product page.  That is the right thing to do.

[asin]B000000R2D[/asin]
Lou Harrison: LA KORO SUTRO (New Albion)

[The new erato]

I am quite surprised not more consumers make a fuss about this. I have received several CD-Rs marketed as CDs recently, and I make it my business to complain loudly both to the webshops and issuing companies when this happens, Nimbus and affiliated companies (Wyastone group) being a prime offender. Often the disc itself contains no clues either until closer inspection of the physical surface.

They may sell whatever they like, but the practice of making NO DISTINCTION as to what they are selling is grossly misleading for the consumers, and any CD from a company using Wyastone is off my purchasing list. Unfortunately, there's often no way to know who's the producer of a disc in this age of small, boutique labels, and I've had several negative surprises. 

[Octave]

You stated it more concisely and gracefully than I did, Erato, as usual.  If memory serves, you and I are both actually quite happy about the availability of licensed/legal CDRs as an advertised alternative---even though I much prefer real compact discs---so I think it's safe to say that the offense is in the shifty contempt for loyal customers who don't want to pirate/download OOP items; the offense is not in the use of CDRs to maximize profits, but in the desire to shrug off any responsibility for making this shift in production values known.  It's louche to the max.

[The new erato]

If memory serves, you and I are both actually quite happy about the availability of licensed/legal CDRs as an advertised alternative---even though I much prefer real compact discs---so I think it's safe to say that the offense is in the shifty contempt for loyal customers .....

There's the rub. Now you all raise hell boys each time you get something different from what you thought you ordered, the offenders is seldom more than a short email away. And in case you don't; don't complain if what you thought were a CD and left in the sunlight for a few days don't play as it should in a few years time. 

[kishnevi]

I think it appropriate to mention that Arkivmusic doesn't always make it clear which of the items it sells on its Amazon storefront are CD-Rs.  (I think I've seen someone comment that all of its Amazon offerings are CD-Rs, but I'm not in a position to confirm that.)  Sometimes it says so, but I've ordered one item from them through Amazon MP and didn't discover that the reason the item was cheap compared to other vendors offering the item as "new" was that it was a CD-R.  (The price difference was large enough that I didn't feel it right to complain.  I just don't buy from their Amazon storefront.)

[Octave]

I've seen some items at the Arkiv Amazon-MP storefront that are almost certainly not CDRs.  (This assumption based on having ordered a couple items from them that way before getting wise, and also noticing the same items at the same price at their website, listed as "CD" rather than "ArkivCD" format.  Admittedly still an assumption!)  I've never seen Arkiv list their Amazon MP wares as "CDR" or "ArkivCD", but the description always seems to say "this is a reissue produced on-demand by ArkivMusic and fully authorized by the original record label", and sometimes I think they mention "full notes and artwork" or something.  That is honest enough, I suppose, but still not without evasiveness.  I see the burden is on the consumer, cf. Phillip Seymour Hoffman in PUNCH DRUNK LOVE, "Well that's what you get for being a pervert!"  The "risk society", it used to be called in sociology.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

I for one am really annoyed if I pay any price, especially full price, for a compact disc that ends up being a burn-to-order CDR (compact disc recordable) instead of a redbook-standard compact disc, if there is no clear indication of this fact before ordering.

Crap, I just received one of these "hidden CDRs" from an Amazon MP vendor who didn't disclose it was an Arkivmusic burn-to-order disc!  And it was full price. How is this happening? Does the MP vendor order an Arkiv CDR and then resell it? Can they do this?

I know for certain I didn't order it off Amazon's Arkiv listing. Not to mention it didn't come from Arkiv - it came from the MP vendor.

I'll be getting to the bottom of this pronto.

[mc ukrneal]

Although it is a royal pain, I think most MP sellers are rather clueless as to what they are selling (which doesn't excuse them, but does mean a polite explanation is in order). That said, I have to agree with those above - if a product other than a CD is being sold, it should be clearly labeled as such somewhere. I've been lucky, having received only one bad egg, but it sounds like the problem is getting worse.

On the other hand, we can copy the disc 'as is' or as lossless to our hard drives and simply burn a disc if something ever goes wrong with the original. It shouldn't be necessary, but may be less of a hassel in the end.

[kishnevi]

Crap, I just received one of these "hidden CDRs" from an Amazon MP vendor who didn't disclose it was an Arkivmusic burn-to-order disc!  And it was full price. How is this happening? Does the MP vendor order an Arkiv CDR and then resell it? Can they do this?

I know for certain I didn't order it off Amazon's Arkiv listing. Not to mention it didn't come from Arkiv - it came from the MP vendor.

I'll be getting to the bottom of this pronto.

I think one has to keep open the possibility that the Amazon MP vendor is clueless about the issue and didn't realize this was an "ArkivCD".

I would actually be more lenient if a record label itself was doing the CD-R--it would actually make sense to keep the original data archived and then "print" a one off copy for a private customer (I have no idea what the overhead, labor and processing costs might be, but they're certainly less than making a re-release edition of so many hundred or thousand copies) on demand.   but I would expect them to clearly label it, and price it as an individualized service--not simply release a quantity of CD-Rs and pretend it's a new reissue on standard CDs.

[kishnevi]

On the other hand, we can copy the disc 'as is' or as lossless to our hard drives and simply burn a disc if something ever goes wrong with the original. It shouldn't be necessary, but may be less of a hassel in the end.

That's fine if one is only dealing with a couple of CDs here and there, but what if the practice becomes more general?  My external hard drive, which I use as a backup, is massive compared to the internal hard drive (1TB compared to 80GB), but I would need something much bigger to store a copy of my entire CD library.  Not to mention the time involved to rip from the source CD, properly tag it, etc.

[Octave]

Crap, I just received one of these "hidden CDRs" from an Amazon MP vendor who didn't disclose it was an Arkivmusic burn-to-order disc!  And it was full price. How is this happening? Does the MP vendor order an Arkiv CDR and then resell it? Can they do this?

I know for certain I didn't order it off Amazon's Arkiv listing. Not to mention it didn't come from Arkiv - it came from the MP vendor.

I'll be getting to the bottom of this pronto.

You might wish to wait until the MP seller responds to you and resolves the issue, and/or you hear from Arkiv about other people (re?)selling their wares; but I for one would like to know what you bought and what dealer sold it to you.  I don't like carping about all this, believe it or not; but having information like this out in (relative) public seems like the only way to maintain any quality control at all.  No different from reporting a manufacturing error in a run of a new product, etc.

[mahler10th]

This is great.  We can all  be  Classical Music Internet Millionaire shortly.  I am starting a new CD-R publishing and distribution label - it will be called GMG (Global Music Group) Inc., a dedicated Classical Music portal for CD-R's of copyright free, 50 year old or over Classical Music.  It's all planned.  Henning can have the East Coast.  Florestan can cut deep with big sales in Eastern Europe.  Springrite will get rights to the whole East Asian seaboard, but Nav can have India and even the Middle East.   Lisztwagner can have Southern Europe if she can manage, and David Ross can get Global Music Group distribution rights to the whole West Coast of America.  Already I have plans for Papy Oil to take all the South American countries by storm with this.

The only snag is I have to burn the CD's here on my single 52x speed in my living room, and ask for all postage costs up front, including the price of the CD-R itself, handling costs etc.  Still, each disc sells for $149, and all my distributors make a dollar for every sale.

Post Script:  Things are disappointing.  I still have had no orders.   

[Mirror Image]

Should Karl and I split duties for the Eastern US, John?

[kishnevi]

Should Karl and I split duties for the Eastern US, John?

In fact, I was going to leave Georgia for you, John, and Texas for Brian and Gurn to split between themselves.  It's Texas, big enough for two people.   I'd take the rest of the South (say, DC on down), but if you want you can take South Carolina.

ETA: almost forgot: Sonicman would have rights to North Carolina and Chambernut to Western Canada.

[Brahmsian]

This is great.  We can all  be  Classical Music Internet Millionaire shortly.  I am starting a new CD-R publishing and distribution label - it will be called GMG (Global Music Group) Inc., a dedicated Classical Music portal for CD-R's of copyright free, 50 year old or over Classical Music.  It's all planned.  Henning can have the East Coast.  Florestan can cut deep with big sales in Eastern Europe.  Springrite will get rights to the whole East Asian seaboard, but Nav can have India and even the Middle East.   Lisztwagner can have Southern Europe if she can manage, and David Ross can get Global Music Group distribution rights to the whole West Coast of America.  Already I have plans for Papy Oil to take all the South American countries by storm with this.

The only snag is I have to burn the CD's here on my single 52x speed in my living room, and ask for all postage costs up front, including the price of the CD-R itself, handling costs etc.  Still, each disc sells for $149, and all my distributors make a dollar for every sale.

Post Script:  Things are disappointing.  I still have had no orders.   

I'd love to be the Canada distributor, John.  However, the CRTC demands that a certain percentage of any kind of art (music, movies, books, et al.) be at least xx% Canadian content.  That is why Netflix Canada is total crap. 

[Mirror Image]

In fact, I was going to leave Georgia for you, John, and Texas for Brian and Gurn to split between themselves.  It's Texas, big enough for two people.   I'd take the rest of the South (say, DC on down), but if you want you can take South Carolina.

I'll take Georgia and Tennessee. We should leave the Carolinas and Virginias to Sonic Man (Dave). Yeah, Texas is quite large --- Gurn and Brian definitely will have to cover this state.

[Brahmsian]

Our first release!

[asin]B00ABQM56K[/asin]

[Mirror Image]

Lol...Ray.

Getting back on-topic, I usually avoid these CD-Rs like I avoid large women leaning over with their butt crack showing in a grocery store. I mean what you get most of the time is just the disc with some crappy looking duplicated cover made out of really cheap paper. Also, the information isn't printed on the inside jackets. All you get after paying a high price to begin with is a cheap cop out and nothing to really show for it.