Gilbert and Sullivan

[shelnatowsky]

How do you view the operettas of Gilbert and Sullivan for their music, for your favorites, and for how you would compare these productions to "traditional" operas?

shelnatowsky

[Ten thumbs]

There is a tradition of light operetta as well and the Gilbert and Sullivan works have an important place in that tradition due to both the extraordinary wit of Gilbert and Sullivan's gift of creating novel and catchy tunes. My personal favorite is Iolanthe, my wife's is Yeoman.

[Gurn Blanston]

I grew up with Sunday morning G & S, thanks to my father. My certain favorite is "HMS Pinafore", but I am also quite fond of "The Mikado" and "The Pirates of Penzance". For me, British operetta compares quite well to opera, not least because I can understand the words! 

[kishnevi]

One thing to remember with Gilbert and Sullivan is that large parts of these operettas are either parodies of 19th century opera or else borrow heavily from operatic musical techniques.  From what I've read,  Donizetti came in from some heavy borrowing.

My personal favorite in G&S is the film of "Pirates of Penzance" which starred Rex Smith, Linda Ronstadt, and Kevin Kline as the Pirate King.  There's also a DVD of the theatrical production on which the film version was based;  I don't know what the differences were between the film and live theatre versions.  (It's the film version I have.)  But Smith, Ronstadt, and especially Kline were first rate Gilbertians.

[Octave]

Pardon the OT, but do any GMG G&Sians like Mike Leigh's film TOPSY-TURVY?  I do not know note one of the men's music [probably not true] and I still thought the film was a joy; though I feel good any time I see Jim Broadbent on screen, even/especially in bad movies.  I wonder if I would have liked the movie more or less if I'd known and cared for the music and the theatrical milieu.  I think one could actually-hate Mike Leigh's other movies and find this movie a lot of fun and at least beautifully designed.

[listener]

Pardon the OT, but do any GMG G&Sians like Mike Leigh's TOPSY-TURVY?  I do not know note one of the men's music [probably not true] and I still thought the film was a joy;...

Yes, very much.   My first introduction to G&S was a pair of 45 rpm London discs of excerpts from Trial By Jury and 78 rpms of highlights by the Victor Light Opera Company, then coming across the texts in paperback which I could afford.
Try also the Mackerras arrangement as a ballet, Pineapple Poll, which has a lot of the 'hits' as well as unfamiliar bits which you will later recognize as something familiar in the less common works.
Several books are available to clear up the period references.   A good production of Patience with its parodies of Oscar Wilde can be great fun to see as well.

[Octave]

Thanks, listener; I have been eyeing the Eloquence reissue with Mackerras conducting PINEAPPLE POLL and some other stuff, as well as Mackerras' G&S productions for Telarc.  I think those will be my entree!  I've even been avoiding little clips and samples, because I'd like to just encounter the music without preparation.  Going to the theater is probably the right way to do it, but not where I live.

[Gurn Blanston]

I particularly relish the songs that are barbed satire of current events, like this one from HMS Pinafore;

Sir Joseph.
When I was a lad I served a term
As office boy to an Attorney's firm.
I cleaned the windows and I swept the floor,
And I polished up the handle of the big front door.

I polished up that handle so carefullee
That now I am the Ruler of the Queen's Navee!

As office boy I made such a mark
That they gave me the post of a junior clerk.
I served the writs with a smile so bland,
And I copied all the letters in a big round hand.

I copied all the letters in a hand so free,
That now I am the Ruler of the Queen's Navee!


In serving writs I made such a name
That an articled clerk I soon became;
I wore clean collars and a brand-new suit
For the pass examination at the Institute.

That pass examination did so well for me,
That now I am the Ruler of the Queen's Navee!

Of legal knowledge I acquired such a grip
That they took me into the partnership.
And that junior partnership, I ween,
Was the only ship that I ever had seen.

But that kind of ship so suited me,
That now I am the ruler of the Queen's Navee!

I grew so rich that I was sent
By a pocket borough into Parliament.
I always voted at my party's call,
And I never thought of thinking for myself at all.

I thought so little, they rewarded me
By making me the Ruler of the Queen's Navee!

Now landsmen all, whoever you may be,
If you want to rise to the top of the tree,
If your soul isn't fettered to an office stool,
Be careful to be guided by this golden rule.

Stick close to your desks and never go to sea,
And you all may be rulers of the Queen's Navee!


Brilliant, actually.

[Ten thumbs]

Funnily enough, I was at a performance of Pinafore and Trial on Friday (26th). Yes indeed! it was great fun and Angelina and the defendant were brilliant!

[Xenophanes]

I like some of the numbers from G & S Operas, but have never been able to put up with the whole things.

Anna Russell tells how to write one of the things (two parts):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yif-5xBbxd4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=x59vFkATXR4&feature=endscreen

"Things would be so different, if they were not as they are."

[Ten thumbs]

Best to see them live. They were never meant to be merely 'listened' to.

[Gurn Blanston]

Best to see them live. They were never meant to be merely 'listened' to.

But people always get so pissy when you sing along with Captain Corcoran....  0:)

[Karl Henning]

So G&S is what we had before Rocky Horror, yes?

[Ten thumbs]

But people always get so pissy when you sing along with Captain Corcoran....  0:)

They're waiting for you to be demoted.   

You can always get them on DVD.

[Sean]

Sullivan tends to be underrated because of the idiom but there's amazing passion and of course huge Englishness in much of his work. I long since tracked down and bought most of the operas; Mikado under Sargent is an extraordinary recording... The more Sullivan topics the better!

[Leo K.]

I've managed now to collect almost all the operas, and I LOVE what I'm hearing. I'm a total novice of G & S.

I love the Englishness of G&S.

[Sean]

Absolutely. I recently got hold of Utopia Ltd, 25 years after Mikado and I can also recommend it, some really amazing English architecture.

Few other English composers from any period have found the spirit of their own culture so well.

Easily the greatest 19th and 18th century English composer.

[douglasofdorset]

I grew up with G & S, or in particular with G & S recordings, to the point where I memorized a lot of the words (and can recall some of it today).  I have all - or nearly all - of the original recordings on LP (I'm afraid I'm that old) conducted by Isidore Godfrey - on what were called 'Full Frequency Range Recordings', a sort of precursor to stereo.  'Utopia Limited' and 'The Grand Duke' are more recent additions (in stereo!).

As to how I would rate Sullivan compared with 'Grand Opera' - well, he was brilliant at putting to music Gilbert's (often 'impossible') lyrics, and his music has a 'feel-good' factor which is hard to ignore.  He too often lapsed into chorale-like sentimentality, and was very 'Victorian' in this sense.  Of course he is not the equal of Donizetti or Verdi (both of which he parodied, along with Handel), but his 'comic operas' are still widely performed in this country (England), mostly by enthusiastic amateur groups, and the tradition at my local 'Arts Centre', where the G & S Society performs one operetta annually for a week, is to clap along with the tunes of the overtures, when they are played (as they generally are) as out-going music, after the curtain - so they certainly enjoy it (the overtures being almost invariably a pot-pourri of some of the musical numbers in the operetta)!

[douglasofdorset]

..."Things would be so different, if they were not as they are."

I love the Anna Russell parody ...and also her explanation of the plot of 'The Ring' ("...remember the Ring?" as she gets ever more bogged down with the details of the story).  I think the end of the quotation is "...or if they were as they are not", which neatly parodies a Gilbertian trick of following Verse A with Verse B, where Verse B appears to contradict Verse A - but only in Gilbertian logic.  If I may I'll quote an example, from 'Princess Ida', where the love-lorn Prince Hilarion, who has been betrothed to Ida since birth, sings:

Ida was a twelve-month old
Twenty years ago.
I was twice her age, I'm told,
Twenty years ago.
Husband twice as old as wife
Argues ill for married life.
Baleful prophecies were rife
Twenty years ago.

Still, I was a tiny prince
Twenty years ago.
She has gained upon me, since
Twenty years ago.
Though she's twenty-one, it's true,
I am barely twenty-two.
False and foolish prophets you,
Twenty years ago!

No wonder Mike Leigh called his film (which I enjoyed, of course) 'Topsy-Turvy'!

[Sean]

Hi Douglas, I'm from the West Mids and first got into Sullivan with the Sargent recording of Mikado, I think stronger still than the famous early Godfrey which I tracked down a few years ago. Sullivan's originality is really intense and spectacular and as I say in touch with the nature of English culture with both its comedy and majesty. Disappointingly few characters here seem to have made the discovery.