Joining the Navy

[greg]

http://adulted.about.com/cs/financialaid/a/tuitionreimburs.htm

nice 

[Sergeant Rock]

Kullervo, you've ruined my afternoon. I've been pondering what to tell you. I don't take this lightly. Afterall, it is a possible life or death decision. There is so much to say and unfortunately little time to say it right now. I'll write more later, possibly in a PM. But my gut reaction is: no, you don't want to enlist. Only fools volunteer during wartime.

On the other hand: When your children ask you, What did you do in the war, Daddy? it won't feel good to say, I stocked shelves at Walmart. Obviously I can't say serving is a bad thing. I'm proud of the 21 years I served and the experiences were incredible. I wouldn't change my life; it worked out well for me.

More later.

Sarge

P.S. You've gotten some good advice from the others...all of them. I wouldn't expect less from this great group.

[tjguitar]

Kullervo, going to college has advantages beyond just getting a useful qualification.

1.  It buys you time.  Your profile says you are now 20.  That's not so old ...  but before long, people are going to expect you to have some idea what you're going to do for a living.  The 3 or 4 years you spend in college insulate you from that kind of pressure (including the kind of pressure you apply to yourself.)  You're just "a student."

2.  It opens up other opportunities.  At college, you don't just spend time studying for your chosen subject.  You meet people - and you get involved in stuff - and who knows what you might get interested in.  Yes, often you could do those things without going to college - but college may provide you with more available opportunities - and the fact is, you've already reached age 20 without doing them or even knowing what they are.  This is not unusual.  I went through a series of academic hothouses until at age 16 I went off to college - with everything all mapped out, supposedly - but where I discovered that what I really liked doing was stage lighting.  I only started into it at college, to help out a friend who was directing a student show.  Then I met other people - who knew other people - started doing jobs at weekends - and when I left, that's what I was doing for a living.  It would never even have occurred to me as a possibility before I went to college.

So I second those who suggest you really do explore every opportunity to go to college before dismissing it.  What you go to college for, is probably secondary.  No, college isn't everything - but in your position, I'd imagine 3 or 4 years at pretty much any college, studying anything, is going to look better than 3 or 4 more years bumming around in "crap retail jobs."

I think Choo Choo is absolutely right.  The life skills you learn at college are just as (if not more) important than the stuff you learn in the classroom.  You can learn a lot about yourself 9 months away from your family/hometown.

[MishaK]

Oh, speaking of using a community college or regional college as a springboard... a friend of mine went to a regional college for a year and then transferred to Northwestern where she graduated as valedictorian of her class. Again, don't let mediocre high school grades fool you into believing you're at a dead end. Many ways lead to Rome. Nothing will let you experiment with different fields of interest while developing essential skills like college will. (And nothing is a better insurance against future unemployment than alumni connections!) Don't give up on it without at least trying. Also again, there are scholarships and grants out there. I graduated with no college debt (law school was another matter entirely) thanks to grants and scholarships. Granted that was ten years ago, but still, it can be done.

[PerfectWagnerite]

Oh, speaking of using a community college or regional college as a springboard... a friend of mine went to a regional college for a year and then transferred to Northwestern where she graduated as valedictorian of her class. Again, don't let mediocre high school grades fool you into believing you're at a dead end. Many ways lead to Rome. Nothing will let you experiment with different fields of interest while developing essential skills like college will. (And nothing is a better insurance against future unemployment than alumni connections!) Don't give up on it without at least trying. Also again, there are scholarships and grants out there. I graduated with no college debt (law school was another matter entirely) thanks to grants and scholarships. Granted that was ten years ago, but still, it can be done.

I hate to derail the thread but since you went to law school you seem like a good person to ask. I am about your age (I'm 32) and am consider going to law school. I am pretty sick of doing engineering. Yeah the money is not bad 90-100K or so but it seems like that appears to be the ceiling. There are very senior level engineers that only make maybe 1.5 times that. Seems like it sort of guarantees a middle class living but no big $$$ in sight. I am thinking of going to law school to do patent law and maybe strike it big with a private law firm. I actually took the LSAT a couple of years ago but didn't apply. It seems to me that the potential to make more money is much better with a law degree than as an engineer. What is your take ?

[MishaK]

I hate to derail the thread but since you went to law school you seem like a good person to ask. I am about your age (I'm 32) and am consider going to law school. I am pretty sick of doing engineering. Yeah the money is not bad 90-100K or so but it seems like that appears to be the ceiling. There are very senior level engineers that only make maybe 1.5 times that. Seems like it sort of guarantees a middle class living but no big $$$ in sight. I am thinking of going to law school to do patent law and maybe strike it big with a private law firm. I actually took the LSAT a couple of years ago but didn't apply. It seems to me that the potential to make more money is much better with a law degree than as an engineer. What is your take ?

I guess derailing threads is an old GMG tradition...  Whether law school is the right thing for you is a personal question that I can't answer. Money and career prospects aside, a legal career is a serious change in lifestyle that you should be aware of and prepared for.

The only way to make serious money right out of law school is to go work for a large corporate law firm in one of the major legal markets (NY, DC, LA, SF, Chicago, Boston). But that is a very peculiar lifestyle. Some people describe it as "sweatshops". Major corporate law firms these days expect you to bill at least 2,000-2,300 hours per year - that's net billable client hours, not the amount of time you actually spend in the office. So, think about this long and hard before you make the move. That being said, I think patent law is one of the better legal areas in which to specialize. With your engineering background you will have the requisite technical knowledge to understand what your clients want to do. And lifestyle tends to be a bit better in patent law as the urgency level of the transactions is not quite as high as, say, in mergers & acquisitions or bankruptcy. The patent lawyers I know tend to be much happier people than the litigators and finance lawyers I know. I would investigate the leading patent law firms in the areas where you want to live and talk to people who work there.

But doing your research is key here. You will want to know in advance what life is like after you get your degree and where you should be looking to get your degree in order to have the best job prospects. While the top ten law schools will open just about any door you want, some regional second tier schools have an excellent reputation in certain markets. I know for example one major Wall Street firm that prefers to hire Fordham graduates with top grades rather than Yale or Harvard grads with only a B average because they allegedly work harder.

But above all, make sure you know what you're getting yourself into. Job dissatisfaction and depression are very, very high among lawyers. From my close circle of law school friends, several are no longer lawyers, and mind you all these kids went to one of the top five law schools and gave up six digit salaries. One is now a high school teacher, two became a housewives. From my end, your (presumably 9-5) job paying $90-100K sounds rather attractive. I might make more money right now, but frankly without the law school debt, I don't think I would need that sort of salary anyway. Next week I am going on my first proper vacation since January '06 (!) and that's only because I just quit my job and will start a new in one late August, so I am taking a month off in between, unpaid of course.

Sorry if I sound a bit pessimistic. But the agressiveness of today's business world has turned the legal profession into a brutal money making machine that burns out many people each year. The turnover of young people at major firms is quite astounding actually. It may be the right thing for you if you know what you want and you know the niche in which you want to specialize and you have a genuine intellectual interest in legal analysis that will keep you interested for a lifetime. But do your research beforehand. Otherwise, if your only concern is big bucks, you'd be far better off getting a job at a hedge fund that specializes in tech stocks. Your engineering background will be a major asset there as it allows you to evaluate the sanity of the business in which your hedge fund wants to invest. You will make much more money without incurring the debt involved with going law school, believe me. My sister-in law was pre-med in college and went to work for a hedge fund that specialized in biotech/medical companies. She raked in more money right out of college than I ever did after law school.

PS: how long will it take for someone to devise a forum software that will allow for threads that branch out into multiple separate threads? It would make GMG so much neater.

[PerfectWagnerite]

Thanks for the reply O Mensch. I know what your are saying. My aunt and her ex-husband went to Boston Univ. Law and while he likes his corporate job, she hated it and hasn't practiced law in about 10 years. I actually got admitted to Fordham Law two years ago but declined to attend because I had my first kid and being new parents and all we were overwhelmed and I found it hard to start law school then. I think if I get some grant from a school like St. John it should make my financial situation a lot better. My aunt actually gave me contact info for some patent attorneys she knew but I didn't contact them because I had made up my mind not to go. I live in NYC and it seems that even if you graduate NOT from NYU, Columbia, or Fordham but from a nice second tier school like Brooklyn Law or St. John and you have good grades and the right specialty finding a good job is not terribly difficult. I don't think I want to work 60-70 hrs a work. I was thinking possibly working for legal divisions of companies like Citibank or JP Morgan Chase.

[greg]

I hate to derail the thread but since you went to law school you seem like a good person to ask. I am about your age (I'm 32) and am consider going to law school. I am pretty sick of doing engineering. Yeah the money is not bad 90-100K or so but it seems like that appears to be the ceiling. There are very senior level engineers that only make maybe 1.5 times that. Seems like it sort of guarantees a middle class living but no big $$$ in sight.

90-100K middle class? 
sounds more like WAY upper class to me

[PerfectWagnerite]

90-100K middle class? 
sounds more like WAY upper class to me

Don't know...My wife makes a little over $60K so you'd think between the two of us we would be pretty good to go. We are hardly big spenders. But every month after the $2500 mortgage payment, the $200 electricity and gas bill, and all the gas and commuting costs we don't have much left over. I know, when I was 18 or 19 or 20 I though: Hell yeah: 90K would be great ! But now it's like: Uhhhh...

[MishaK]

I live in NYC and it seems that even if you graduate NOT from NYU, Columbia, or Fordham but from a nice second tier school like Brooklyn Law or St. John and you have good grades and the right specialty finding a good job is not terribly difficult.

Yes, provided you are in the top 10-15% of your class if you went to a second tier school and provided the economy is doing well. In 2001/02 you probably would have been SOL with anything less than an absolutely stellar GPA from a second-tier school plus law review. Also, in NY, Cardozo.

I don't think I want to work 60-70 hrs a work. I was thinking possibly working for legal divisions of companies like Citibank or JP Morgan Chase.

But those guys tend not to hire straight out of law school. They usually don't look at people who don't at least have five years of law firm experience in the area they want you to work in. Most corporations don't have large legal departments, or at least don't have large groups of specialists within their legal departments. So they can't provide the sort of training a newbie needs. Hence they externalize the training costs on law firms and hire mid-levels or senior attorneys only. Keep in mind also that the salaries for in-house jobs are more in the range of what you're making right now. They will be nowhere near what you will make at a major law firm.  The in-house track is a typical route for people who burn out at big firms and want to settle for less money but more reasonable hours. If in-house is really your goal, I'd say forget it. Financially, the only difference to what you have now will be taking on an additional $120+K in debt for law school.

[PerfectWagnerite]

But those guys tend not to hire straight out of law school. They usually don't look at people who don't at least have five years of law firm experience in the area they want you to work in. Most corporations don't have large legal departments, or at least don't have large groups of specialists within their legal departments. So they can't provide the sort of training a newbie needs. Hence they externalize the training costs on law firms and hire mid-levels or senior attorneys only. Keep in mind also that the salaries for in-house jobs are more in the range of what you're making right now. They will be nowhere near what you will make at a major law firm.  The in-house track is a typical route for people who burn out at big firms and want to settle for less money but more reasonable hours. If in-house is really your goal, I'd say forget it. Financially, the only difference to what you have now will be taking on an additional $120+K in debt for law school.

So basically if you want to do patent/IP law you it's either large law firms and work 70 hrs a week or nothing ? Sh*t, I want to see my kids once in a while too !

[MishaK]

So basically if you want to do patent/IP law you it's either large law firms and work 70 hrs a week or nothing ? Sh*t, I want to see my kids once in a while too !

Well, I wouldn't put it quite so drastically. As I said, I believe the hours are better for patent lawyers at big firms as opposed to M&A, litigation and the like. Again, I am not a patent lawyer, so do your research and talk to people who do this for a living and look into firms that have more reasonable vacation and family leave policies (they do exist). I don't normally work 70 hours a week either, except at quarter end (when it can be a lot more); e.g. I billed only 185 hours in May, but 220 in June. My line of work is somewhat cyclical, so there are reasonably predictable stretches where you can expect a lesser workload.

[greg]

Don't know...My wife makes a little over $60K so you'd think between the two of us we would be pretty good to go. We are hardly big spenders. But every month after the $2500 mortgage payment, the $200 electricity and gas bill, and all the gas and commuting costs we don't have much left over. I know, when I was 18 or 19 or 20 I though: Hell yeah: 90K would be great ! But now it's like: Uhhhh...

lol, if it's like that for you, no wonder my parents have no money for me

[MishaK]

lol, if it's like that for you, no wonder my parents have no money for me

Yes, greg. The price of admission to the upper crust went up considerably long ago.

[PerfectWagnerite]

Well, I wouldn't put it quite so drastically. As I said, I believe the hours are better for patent lawyers at big firms as opposed to M&A, litigation and the like. Again, I am not a patent lawyer, so do your research and talk to people who do this for a living and look into firms that have more reasonable vacation and family leave policies (they do exist). I don't normally work 70 hours a week either, except at quarter end (when it can be a lot more); e.g. I billed only 185 hours in May, but 220 in June. My line of work is somewhat cyclical, so there are reasonably predictable stretches where you can expect a lesser workload.

Is your take-home pay directly proportional to the number of hours you bill? Did you get paid more in June than in May?

[MishaK]

Is your take-home pay directly proportional to the number of hours you bill? Did you get paid more in June than in May?

No. There is a flat base salary. Each year you may get a bonus based in part on how many hours you billed in total for the year. But if and how that is allocated varies from firm to firm (and from year to year if the firm's overall financial performance is uneven). At some firms the bonus is purely based on class level and hours, at others there may be an element of subjective evaluation by your bosses.

[PerfectWagnerite]

You billed 220 hrs in June so how many hours would you say you worked? 300? And you still have time to hang out in this forum?

[MishaK]

You billed 220 hrs in June so how many hours would you say you worked? 300?

I have no idea. Certainly not that much. My worked to billable ratio is reasonably close to 1:1, but that's due to my line of work. I also sometimes might go home at a reasonable hour but will then work a few hours over the weekend from home, as we have a system that allows you to log in remotely to your workstation. But again, what I do is irrelevant. You need to talk to patent lawyers and ask them how many hours they bill.

And you still have time to hang out in this forum?

Not during the 200+ billable months.

[PerfectWagnerite]

I have no idea. Certainly not that much. My worked to billable ratio is reasonably close to 1:1, but that's due to my line of work. I also sometimes might go home at a reasonable hour but will then work a few hours over the weekend from home, as we have a system that allows you to log in remotely to your workstation. But again, what I do is irrelevant. You need to talk to patent lawyers and ask them how many hours they bill.

Not during the 200+ billable months.

Thanks for all your help ! And just exactly what is your line of practice if you don't mind me asking?

[MishaK]

Thanks for all your help ! And just exactly what is your line of practice if you don't mind me asking?

I do mind, because it's a fairly small community of specialists and I'd rather keep a certain level of anonimity here. But it has to do with what you see in my avatar, though that is a rather outdated example.