Your favorite opera villain/anti-villain

[Tsaraslondon]

I think my favorite Verdi villain is Paolo, a mixture of suave diplomat and vengeful assassin.

And Verdi certainly has sympathy for him. Just think of that glorious theme that accompanies his arrest. This is one of the things that makes Verdi so great; a true humanist, he can feel sympathy for the condition of all men.

[Florestan]

And Verdi certainly has sympathy for him. Just think of that glorious theme that accompanies his arrest. This is one of the things that makes Verdi so great; a true humanist, he can feel sympathy for the condition of all men.

I'm a Christian therefore I say: an unrepentant villain is to be pitied more than a repentant one, because the former's lot will be eternal Hell while for the latter there is still hope of redemption.

[Tsaraslondon]

I'm a Christian therefore I say: an unrepentant villain is to be pitied more than a repentant one, because the former's lot will be eternal Hell while for the latter there is still hope of redemption.

Though I would argue that, to go to Hell, you would have to believe in it in the first place. Like Verdi, I'm a humanist. I believe in placing the end of moral action in the welfare of humanity rather than in fulfilling the will of God.

[kishnevi]

I believe in placing the end of moral action in the welfare of humanity rather than in fulfilling the will of God.

The religiously inclined person would say the two are intimately entwined:  acting for the welfare of humanity requires one to fulfill the will of God, and fulfilling the will of God requires one to act for the welfare of humanity.  Or to paraphrase the Baal HaTanya, the founder of Chabad (Lubavitch) Chasidism:  if you love God, you will love your fellow humans, because a lover loves those his Beloved loves.

[Tsaraslondon]

The religiously inclined person would say the two are intimately entwined:  acting for the welfare of humanity requires one to fulfill the will of God, and fulfilling the will of God requires one to act for the welfare of humanity.  Or to paraphrase the Baal HaTanya, the founder of Chabad (Lubavitch) Chasidism:  if you love God, you will love your fellow humans, because a lover loves those his Beloved loves.

I respect your views, but, as a humanist, I am also an atheist. I do not believe you have to believe in the existence of a higher being in order to act for the welfare of humanity. How about just doing it because it's the right thing to do? Why is it necessary to believe in God in order to have a moral code? I don't see it.

[The new erato]

Why is it necessary to believe in God in order to have a moral code? I don't see it.

Neither do I.

[Wendell_E]

And, of course, many horribly immoral acts are committed by people who fervently believe in god, and believe they're fulfilling his will.

Speaking of which, and getting back on topic, has anyone mentioned the Grand Inquisitor in Don Carlos?

[Tsaraslondon]

And, of course, many horribly immoral acts are committed by people who fervently believe in god, and believe they're fulfilling his will.

Speaking of which, and getting back on topic, has anyone mentioned the Grand Inquisitor in Don Carlos?

Amen to that.

Nobody has mentioned the Grand Inquisitor so far, but I'd say he qualifies. Don Carlos is probably Verdi's most anti-religion work, though he has a further swipe in Aida. They may not be Christian priests in Aida, but the message is clear enough.

O, gli' infami! Ne di sangue son paghi giammai. E si chiaman ministri del ciel (Oh the infamous creatures. They can never have enough bloodshed! And they call themselves ministers of heaven!)

Maybe this is one of the reasons I like Verdi so much.

[Jaakko Keskinen]

And Verdi certainly has sympathy for him. Just think of that glorious theme that accompanies his arrest. This is one of the things that makes Verdi so great; a true humanist, he can feel sympathy for the condition of all men.

"Il mio demonio mi cacciò fra l'armi
Dei rivoltosi e là fui colto; ed ora
Mi condanna Simon; ma da me prima
Fu il Boccanegra condannato a morte."

Yeah, you can really feel for the guy. Despite of his many bad deeds he is still a human being and that low string melody captures perfectly how he must feel, being led to the scaffold and all. And the guy who had him executed was the one he convinced people to elect! And the fact that he hears a freaking wedding chorals at the same time. Kind of reminds me of how some great authors like Victor Hugo or Charles Dickens (ring that bell) describe the last moments of the condemned man.

[The new erato]

I wonder whose favorite Scarpia's is?

[vandermolen]

Opera is unfortunately a blind spot for me. I have only seen Boris Godunov (a few times), Khovanshchina, Billy Bud and the Barber of Seville (in Leningrad - as it was then called) + The Pilgrim's Progress by Vaughan Williams.

The character who stands out for me has to be Boris Godunov.

[Xenophanes]

For sheer virtuosity, it has to be the Queen of the Night. She has that very demanding aria, given an awe-inspiring performance by Diana Damrau here\;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXOYcd6KZ0E

Of course, I can't sing that one.  For villains whose arias I could sing, there is Don Giovanni.  First Pinza:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQmW6r22wAw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAjkSaDMuls

Then Siepi:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SwRWDuOylw8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFHyyVcsRQA

At my age, I am not too sure I could get through the whole part in a single performance, but I could sing Scarpia's big aria. This is from the Gigli recording with Armando Borgioli, a really evil sounding Scarpia:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDU4vI24KbY

[Wanderer]

I wonder whose favorite Scarpia's is?

That would be me.

[Fafner]

I'm surprised noone mentioned Salomé yet. That would be the top choice for me, with Lady Macbeth close second.

[Tsaraslondon]

I'm surprised noone mentioned Salomé yet. That would be the top choice for me, with Lady Macbeth close second.

Is Salome a villain. She's a spoiled brat, who's used to always getting her own way, that's for sure, but a villain, in the manner of Lady Macbeth, say, I'm not sure.

Being a villain surely requires a certain amount of plotting and planning. I'm not sure Salome really thinks about what she's asking for, so intent is she on her own gratification.

[wagnernn]

Barnaba from La Gioconda, anyone?

[Revenant]

Write in for me: Iago.  Although Alberich would be a close second.

[PaulR]

Perhaps more of antagonists rather than villains, but Boris Ismailov and Sergei from Lady Macbeth of the Mtsensk District

This is definitely more of an antagonist, but worth mentioning: Shaklovity from Musorgsky's Khovanshchina

[DaveF]

Anybody that's represented by a pair of trilling piccolos has to be really, really bad - step forward Kaspar from Freischütz.

DF

[Jaakko Keskinen]

Mime, the Niebelung dwarf, brother of Alberich in Wagner's Rheingold and Siegfried. Like Gollum in LOTR, he's an obsessed and obsequious little monster with a heart as black as coal. And like Gollum he provides many comic as well as chillingly evil moments.

Sarge

I find Mime very sympathetic character (and if you take Mahler into account, I'm not the only one) as well as Gollum. I think that in Tolkien's Ring (unlike Wagner's Ring's gray and grey morality where hardly anyone can be considered literally evil) Gollum is one of the only characters who clearly shows both bad and good qualities and many (Including Tolkien himself if Frodo's "So let us forgive him!" is of any indication) see Gollum's (albeit accidental) destroying of the Ring as his redemption.

As for Mime, he also has redeeming qualities such as that part in Siegfried when Mime is willing to forgive Alberich in exchange for Tarnhelm. And yes, while he does intend to kill Siegfried if he doesn't give Ring to him, the fact remains that he still cared for him many years and Siegfried treats him like crap long before he has any solid proof that Mime is up to something. So I personally while agreeing that he is a villain also feel deeply sorry for him.

And yes, I am quite aware that, unlike with Alberich, Wagner most likely didn't feel sorry for Mime *cough*jewish stereotype*cough*. But most likely Shakespeare also didn't feel sorry for Shylock yet he managed to create a complex and humane character. I feel that applies to Mime too.

Not of course in any way to understate your opinion, just saying how I personally feel about it