Your favorite opera villain/anti-villain

[Tsaraslondon]

And with the case of Amneris, I just freaking forgot her. I was going to put her on the list but I just forgot.

I wouldn't necessarily call Amneris a villain. She is just a spoiled Princess, used to getting what she wants. When she behaves badly she behaves like a brat, and she does show repentance at the end. She doesn't glory in what she brings about. So no, not really a villain.

[Jaakko Keskinen]

I kind of agree, one can be antagonist without being a villain. I was going to add her because I've read many articles where she is considered a villain - and I think a villain CAN show repentance. But otherwise yeah, I agree.

[Lisztianwagner]

For his cunning and unpredictability, Loge is definitely one of the most intriguing figures of the Ring Cycle; and he's marked by wonderful leitmotives.

Anyway, seeing the names of Eugene Onegin, Rigoletto and Peter Grimes made me think of another possible atypical anti-villain: Wotan, certainly a complex character and full of contradictions, not even marked by a leitmotiv of his own.
In Siegfried, Wotan calls himself Licht-Alberich and he also says that Alberich is the dark side of his ambition; of course he is the father of the Gods, he searches for truth, he accepts the advice of Fricka and Erda, but he also allows himself to be led by the cunning and the tricks of Loge; he reigns with the law and the runes engraved on his spear symbolize justice and the contracts from which Wotan's power derives, but Wotan always tries to evade them to impose his will, for example when he tries to break the deal with the giants; he breaks a branch from the world tree to create a spear, but doing so, he condemns the tree and the spring of wisdom to dry up, and these terrible acts against Nature could be compared with Alberich stealing the gold. And always like Alberich, although he doesn't want to respect the deal, Wotan accepts to give Freia, the goddess of love and youth, to pay the Walhalla, so he would renounce to love for power. He creates the conditions for the end of the Gods even before Alberich's curse.

[Florestan]

My favorite is neither a villain, nor an anti-villain: Don Jose from Carmen. Just a regular chap split between duty and passion. 

[Jaakko Keskinen]

I was considering adding Wotan too (yes, I considered many characters before I came up with eventual result) but I ultimately chose to put Alberich instead. Which is kind of unfair, considering that Alberich really is no worse than Wotan IMO and in fact possibly even more innocent in some respects. I didn't add both because I already had too many Wagner villains on this poll. Just look! 4 Wagner villains and not a single Verdi, Gounod, Massenet villain. I consider most if not all Wagner villains/antagonists fairly sympathetic. I consider most villainous ones to be probably Klingsor and Ortrud, which are in this poll. Klingsor however was rebuked from Monsalvat simply because he castrated himself in trying to end his sexual desires - I would be pretty pissed off too.

As for Ortrud, she believes in older Pagan Gods and justifies her actions by saying that this is how they take their revenge on the ones that have renounced them. And being a "heretic" who believes in pagan gods in Middle Ages was horrible. Heretics were burned on the stake. Although she most likely wasn't telling everyone about her faith until the very end of the opera. Does all this justify her actions? No, but it makes them more understandable. You are free to say however what you want about her.

And Ring Cycle's supposed "hero" Siegfried is not exactly a nice guy.

And yes, many other villains/antagonists from other composer's works have sympathetic qualities too. I get little carried away when talking about ones by Wagner.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

My favorite is neither a villain, nor an anti-villain: Don Jose from Carmen. Just a regular chap split between duty and passion. 

That description reminds me a little of Golaud. A sober, dutiful, by-the-book soul who can't hold it together when the sparks eventually fly.

[mc ukrneal]

Well, there are still others: Peter Quint from Turn of the Screw comes to mind. Turn of the Screw always gives me chills. I seem to remember once doing a bit on best villains. Anyone remember this?

[Tsaraslondon]

Well, there are still others: Peter Quint from Turn of the Screw comes to mind. Turn of the Screw always gives me chills. I seem to remember once doing a bit on best villains. Anyone remember this?

Quint is certainly one of the most evil characters in opera, though I wonder if he counts, as he's a ghost, and possibly only exists in the mind of the governess. 

Claggart in Billy Budd hasn't been mentioned. Evil and probably homophobic to boot. Irresistibly drawn to Billy, the only way he can deal with his attraction is to destroy that which he desires.

[mc ukrneal]

Quint is certainly one of the most evil characters in opera, though I wonder if he counts, as he's a ghost, and possibly only exists in the mind of the governess. 

Claggart in Billy Budd hasn't been mentioned. Evil and probably homophobic to boot. Irresistibly drawn to Billy, the only way he can deal with his attraction is to destroy that which he desires.

I actually like the idea that he may be a ghost and exist only in her mind. I find the best productions don't give you an answer on this point. Billy Budd is another good one. Britten has some of the best characters, I think, in opera. Or at least, they are very rich in details and atmosphere.

I realized in my earlier post I forgot to say that I thought WQXR had done something on this topic - a list of villains or something like that. 

[kishnevi]

I actually like the idea that he may be a ghost and exist only in her mind. I find the best productions don't give you an answer on this point. Billy Budd is another good one. Britten has some of the best characters, I think, in opera. Or at least, they are very rich in details and atmosphere.

I realized in my earlier post I forgot to say that I thought WQXR had done something on this topic - a list of villains or something like that.

The question of Quint's reality is something that's actually present in the original Henry James version: the story can be read either way.

If we're including anti-heros and not just villianous villians,  I'd include Strauss's Elektra in the list.

[jochanaan]

...Britten has some of the best characters, I think, in opera. Or at least, they are very rich in details and atmosphere...

I agree.  In fact, the Britten operas are among my favorites; they're brilliant in both drama and music.

[knight66]

Opera for grown ups.

Mike

[knight66]

Scarpia is certainly a plum part, but I think he is really a very upmarket cardboard villain. We don't encounter him in any mood other than hungry. But the narrow band of his behaviour is exploited terrifically well by Puccini.

Mike

[Tsaraslondon]

Scarpia is certainly a plum part, but I think he is really a very upmarket cardboard villain. We don't encounter him in any mood other than hungry. But the narrow band of his behaviour is exploited terrifically well by Puccini.

Mike

Often portrayed as a cruel thug, what made Gobbi's portrayal so interesting, is that he played him as a man of impeccable taste and manners, which covered his throroughly sadistic nature. This Scarpia is a man who could quite easily mix with the best of society. The way he courts Tosca in the first Act is positively reptilian.

Nobody has yet mentioned the Macbeths. It is Lady Macbeth who is the visionary, the one with imagination, if you like, and, of course, it is that imagination that is her eventual ruin. I've always found her rather more interesting than her husband, both in the play and the opera.

King Philip is another character who might be considered a villain, though, to my mind, he is just a weak man and a weak ruler, completely in thrall to the Church. Of all operas, it is this one in which Verdi's well known antipathy to the Church is most in evidence.

[Jaakko Keskinen]

Scarpia may be a cardboard villain but I say that he is pretty damn impressive cardboard villain. Especially in this 1976 version, as Sherrill Milnes as Scarpia. Voice may not be on Gobbi's level but God does he look evil and menacing!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eZLPU3mpBQ

[kishnevi]

Scarpia is certainly a plum part, but I think he is really a very upmarket cardboard villain. We don't encounter him in any mood other than hungry. But the narrow band of his behaviour is exploited terrifically well by Puccini.

Mike

He's also helped by the fact that Cavardossi is something of a cardboard character, and that for  Acts I and III, Tosca something of a cardboard heroine, or at least a character following along grooves that were already well worn on the stage.  It's only in Act II that she comes alive and tosses aside the stereotypical elements of her character.

[Tsaraslondon]

He's also helped by the fact that Cavardossi is something of a cardboard character, and that for  Acts I and III, Tosca something of a cardboard heroine, or at least a character following along grooves that were already well worn on the stage.  It's only in Act II that she comes alive and tosses aside the stereotypical elements of her character.

Brought up on Callas's Tosca, I would never have called Tosca a cardboard heroine, but then Callas could breathe life into any stock character. That said, with or without Callas, I think Tosca is quite well rounded. In the first act we are presented with a capricious woman, loving but quick to anger, and full of insecurities that lead to her jealousy, all qualities that Scarpia exploits to the full to get out of her what she wants. In Act Two, she is backed into a corner and does what only a woman of her nature would do, she eventually fights back. And in act Three, we see both forces in actions again. The decision to jump to her death is yet again a result of her being backed into a corner by Scarpia. I think she is superbly characterised by Puccini.

[douglasofdorset]

What about Attila - he must have killed thousands, if not millions.  Or for that matter Gesler in 'Guillaume Tell'.  Or even Francesco in 'I Masnadieri', who virtually buries his father alive and then attempts to seduce by force (I guess it would be 'rape' if it was written today) the betrothed of his older brother?

I thought about Lady Macbeth and Abigaille (previously mentioned)... the trouble with Verdi's villains is that he has the ability to make us feel sorry for the villains as much as much as the good guys.  Thinking about it, I don't think he wrote any music for Iago that portrays him in a sympathetic or vulnerable light - so I vote for Iago.  He has no redeeming features.

[Jaakko Keskinen]

the trouble with Verdi's villains is that he has the ability to make us feel sorry for the villains as much as much as the good guys.

Is that necessarily a bad thing? I think a good villain can be sympathetic, although it can be a problem when they become so sympathetic that the "good guys" (and I mean intentionally heroic characters, not antiheroes/heroines) seem much more cruel. Not that I'm against truly monstrous villains in any way.

I think my favorite Verdi villain is Paolo, a mixture of suave diplomat and vengeful assassin.

[douglasofdorset]

Hi, Alberich - no, I don't think it's a bad thing at all to make villains sympathetic - it's one of the distinguishing features of Verdi - I only meant that, to narrow the field, I personally would exclude from possible candidates those villains for which we are moved to feel pity by the music (so by 'trouble' I meant trouble from the point of view of answering the question).  And I agree about Paolo - a nasty piece of work!

Adding to Attila, Tambulaine (Handel's 'Tammerlano') must run him pretty close in terms of numbers killed - but again, like Verdi, Handel moves us to pity him.