Vaughan Williams's Veranda

[Mirror Image]

In some ways I think of the 3rd as far darker than the 4th; the violence and dark qualities of the 4th and 6th are very up-front whereas in the 3rd everything is tinged with the unsettling darkness under the surface. There's nothing of the active defiance of the darker emotions that the 4th and (to some extent) 6th have, just a very bleak undercurrent that never goes away.

I know, I know RVW said he didn't attach any program to his symphonies, but sometimes I think his descriptions sound completely vague. I, too, think the 3rd is troubled work, but, as you say, it's all under the surface. I think it's really a requiem more than anything. A requiem to a time that will longer be.

[Mirror Image]

Sounds very interesting,Mirror Image! I'm going to have to make a note of that.

Yeah, I'm about to re-listen to it. It's been several months since I've heard it.

[eyeresist]

It seems that RVW's 4th and 6th symphonies seem to still give some listeners problems. I find these two symphonies to be two of the most compelling symphonies written by a British composer. I really like all of RVW's symphonies, but it seems that these two symphonies' violence nature sparks something inside of me. How could someone so humble and kind, compose something so ominous? Any thoughts?

Well, he wasn't a saint, you know. Apparently some of Rafe's friends thought the 4th was a self-portrait.

Symphonies 7 and 9 are also quite dark (I favour Previn's slow tempos in both of these).

[Mirror Image]

Apparently some of Rafe's friends thought the 4th was a self-portrait.

This is what I picked up when watching O Thou Transcendent, the Tony Palmer film. If the 4th was a self-portrait of his life at that juncture, what are the meanings behind the 5th and 6th symphonies? Any thoughts?

[eyeresist]

This is what I picked up when watching O Thou Transcendent, the Tony Palmer film. If the 4th was a self-portrait of his life at that juncture, what are the meanings behind the 5th and 6th symphonies? Any thoughts?

I've read the tempest of the 4th was inspired by RVW's marriage problems. I don't think the 6th is such a diversion from the musical norm, more an obvious waystation to the late trilogy. Actually, if you just look at symphonies 4-9, it's the 5th that looks freakish.

What caused the shift in style? Obviously part of it was the acerbic qualities of the new music of the times. Also, I think maybe RVW came to express himself more personally as he went on, whereas symphonies 1 and 2 certainly are conceived more as public events.

For me the real mystery (please pardon the pun!) is the Pilgrim's Progress. I don't understand what he was trying to achieve with it, particularly as he was a non-believer.

[Mirror Image]

I've read the tempest of the 4th was inspired by RVW's marriage problems. I don't think the 6th is such a diversion from the musical norm, more an obvious waystation to the late trilogy. Actually, if you just look at symphonies 4-9, it's the 5th that looks freakish.

What caused the shift in style? Obviously part of it was the acerbic qualities of the new music of the times. Also, I think maybe RVW came to express himself more personally as he went on, whereas symphonies 1 and 2 certainly are conceived more as public events.

For me the real mystery (please pardon the pun!) is the Pilgrim's Progress. I don't understand what he was trying to achieve with it, particularly as he was a non-believer.

The 5th, in my opinion, was composed during a very happy time during his life. The Romanza movement, according to the Tony Palmer film, was inspired by his love for Ursula, and this really is what I consider the heart of this symphony. The first, second, and finale movements still baffle me. I mean I love the music of course, but their meaning in the grand scheme of the symphony seems kind of odd. But somehow, RVW made it all work together and it still holds up well I think even after listening to it as many times as I have. I also think this symphony lingers in the shadows of the 4th and 6th and acts as kind of a whispering ghost telling the listener that there's still good in this world.

The 6th, the more I think about it, represents his feelings on WWII whether those thoughts have manifested themselves in this symphony or not we'll never know. It's all speculation, but I imagine, as an abulance driver in WWI, he saw some of the most horrific things imaginable. I think WWII was just another nail into his mental coffin. His dreams for those rolling green hills, the afternoon walks in the park, and for a life of peace and serenity came to a violent, screeching hault when this war broke out and I believe it devastated him.

Anyway, I'm just tossing out ideas here which can sometimes be illuminating...

[Elgarian]

(Can't help myself . . . .)

Always look on the bright side of life! . . .

Good point, Karl, reminding us that Vaughan Williams's's 'Python' Symphony has always been a reliable source of infectious bounce.

[Elgarian]

In some ways I think of the 3rd as far darker than the 4th; the violence and dark qualities of the 4th and 6th are very up-front whereas in the 3rd everything is tinged with the unsettling darkness under the surface. There's nothing of the active defiance of the darker emotions that the 4th and (to some extent) 6th have, just a very bleak undercurrent that never goes away.

I wouldn't disagree with you. What I was getting at, though, is that different types of darkness press different folks' neurotic buttons differently. The other factor is that I find the third, even though barely-suppressed dismay lies beneath its surface, very enticing to listen to - it just sounds so beautiful. By contrast, I simply don't enjoy listening to the sounds of the fourth.

But I'm not really contributing anything enlightening about RVW. I'm mostly talking about one particular current bundle of preferences and neuroses (mine), and how they affect response - not about his music.

[Karl Henning]

Just two thoughts in contribution to the flow.

Going back at least to LvB's Große Fuge, there are some pieces written in such a way, that it almost seems (to invoke a technological anachronism) that the composer dares you to switch it off.  And (while it is a piece I've always liked, myself) the RVW Fourth seems to me to spring in part from such a strain.

Composers' biographies, now. They are of undeniable interest, and in many ways (some ways, perfectly subtle) illumine the work. But there's a slick slope which one's feet are entirely apt to find on their own, and the pit at the bottom of that slope is the touchy-feely swamp whence ideas like "Shakespeare wrote Hamlet at a Dark Time in his life, but he wrote Twelfth Night when birds were singing in the trees." All I say here is, please, let's agree that the great artists are also intelligent, capable craftsmen, and that the bulk of their work (it may be) they created because it seemed to them good, and not because, like callow teens, they cannot help blurting out into art, their feeeeelings du jour.

Carry on ....

[Sergeant Rock]

All I say here is, please, let's agree that the great artists are also intelligent, capable craftsmen, and that the bulk of their work (it may be) they created because it seemed to them good, and not because, like callow teens, they cannot help blurting out into art, their feeeeelings du jour.

Maybe...but also possibly this:

"What one can say is that it was necessary, at that moment, for him to write it: to bring into the open the turmoil behind works like Job and the Piano Concerto, allowing violence, with almost gleeful abandon, to do its worst. Only then could he say, from the horror of war, within and without, dona nobis pacem, and proceed to make his Fifth Symphony, which may fairly claim to be his ultimate masterpiece." --Wilfrid Mellers, Vaughan Williams and the Vision of Albion

I don't think it farfetched to believe VW's concern about events and his own inner demons found outlets in the violence of the Fourth and the explicit reference to war and peace in Dona nobis pacem, two works that were conceived together.

Sarge

[Karl Henning]

Maybe...but also possibly this:

"What one can say is that it was necessary, at that moment, for him to write it: to bring into the open the turmoil behind works like Job and the Piano Concerto, allowing violence, with almost gleeful abandon, to do its worst. Only then could he say, from the horror of war, within and without, dona nobis pacem, and proceed to make his Fifth Symphony, which may fairly claim to be his ultimate masterpiece." --Wilfrid Mellers, Vaughan Williams and the Vision of Albion

I don't think it farfetched to believe VW's concern about events and his own inner demons found outlets in the violence of the Fourth and the explicit reference to war and peace in Dona nobis pacem, two works that were conceived together.

Not at all far-fetched, esteemed Sarge. If you'll forgive my performing (composer-like) a variation upon your theme, I can assent most readily to the following: VW's concern about events and his own inner demons found outlets in the explicit reference to war and peace in Dona nobis pacem.

Which is not to say that you are mistaken in the matter of the Fourth (I am in no position to suggest any such thing). Only that I do not necessarily find that in the text, either in your interesting and useful citation here, nor in the symphony.  I am sure that part of the matter is, that I am so accustomed to enjoying music which is a far wilder ride;  but in the drama of the Fourth I do not hear martial violence . . . and indeed, in some of its energetic play, I hear bumptious good spirits.

[Sergeant Rock]

....but in the drama of the Fourth I do not hear martial violence . . . and indeed, in some of its energetic play, I hear bumptious good spirits.[/font]

You know, soldiers take frequent and often playful breaks from the killing 

But I didn't mean to imply that the Fourth is all about war. I don't fault you for reading me that way though. My fault. When I used the words "inner demons" and "events" I meant the music may have been the result of biographical baggage, including his troubled marriage, Europe's political turmoil, his memory of the Great War, etc. Of course I don't know what VW meant (if anything) by the Fourth. But I tend to believe it wasn't unconnected to his own life. He might very well have been "blurting out into art, [his] feeeeelings du jour." Or not 

Sarge

[Karl Henning]

Hah!

Speaking for myself (which will not necessarily answer for any other composer, certainly not a great chap like RVW): I suppose every piece I write is connected to my life, somehow; only I myself should be hard pressed to figure out how, in many instances.

[not edward]

Hah!

Speaking for myself (which will not necessarily answer for any other composer, certainly not a great chap like RVW): I suppose every piece I write is connected to my life, somehow; only I myself should be hard pressed to figure out how, in many instances.

However, if in the future your work is admitted into the canon, you will find any number of people willing to figure that out for you.

[Sergeant Rock]

However, if in the future your work is admitted into the canon, you will find any number of people willing to figure that out for you.

Sarge

[Karl Henning]

Yes!

[Karl Henning]

The mischief-maker in me wants to call bits of the Andante sostenuto movement of the Ninth "In the Hall of the Cow-Pat King."

[TheGSMoeller]

I love RVW's 8th and 9th!

[quick post, short on time]

[Christo]

I love RVW's 8th & 9th!

[quick post, short on time]

Me too! [running] 

[Christo]

It's rather amusing that I avoided Bryden Thomson's set for a long time, but, when I finally bought it, I listened to the 5th and instantly thought "Okay, now why did I put off buying this set for so long?" It's an expensive set no doubt. I've never seen it less than $45, but it's worth every penny.

They are. I bought them one by one, at their release, back in the 1980s and 1990s. They were only the third cycle available then, after Boult and Previn, and a huge leap forward in terms of sound. I paid about 22 euros each (in solid guilders and with a minimum income myself  ), making about 200 euros / 260 USD / for the whole bunch.