Vaughan Williams's Veranda

Started by karlhenning, April 12, 2007, 06:03:44 AM

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Pohjolas Daughter

Quote from: Irons on December 17, 2023, 12:33:43 AMVW is now a solitary figure, for his influence has served but to produce a steady trickle of pentatonic wish-wash.

 >:D

The world looked a different place in 1953. I don't agree with most critique but far more interesting then musical criticism of today.
Where is that quote from Irons?

PD
Pohjolas Daughter

Abdel Ove Allhan

Yah, I think Shosty needs to stay in his own "area".
For me, Shostakovich, like RVW implied was a purveyor of 'Wrong note music."
https://www.theguardian.com/music/2022/jul/26/ralph-vaughan-williams-visionary-genius-lark-ascending
Music is the most essential yet practically useless endeavor in the entirety of human existence.Yet without music our existence would be comparable to the world of insects."The man that hath no music in himself Is fit for treasons, stratagems, and spoils, Let no such man be trusted."W. Shakespeare

Karl Henning

Quote from: Abdel Ove Allhan on December 17, 2023, 08:15:22 AMYah, I think Shosty needs to stay in his own "area".
Oh, then you shouldn't set stink-bombs like this:
Quote from: Abdel Ove Allhan on December 17, 2023, 08:15:22 AMFor me, Shostakovich, like RVW implied was a purveyor of 'Wrong note music."
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Abdel Ove Allhan

Just quotes. No harm, no "foul".
Music is the most essential yet practically useless endeavor in the entirety of human existence.Yet without music our existence would be comparable to the world of insects."The man that hath no music in himself Is fit for treasons, stratagems, and spoils, Let no such man be trusted."W. Shakespeare

Karl Henning

Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

DaveF

Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on December 17, 2023, 05:31:26 AMWhere is that quote from Irons?

PD

With apologies for butting in: it is attributed here https://www.classicalsource.com/prom/ralph-vaughan-williams/ to "a celebrated 1950s' record guide" (presumably Gramophone).  The full quote begins by calling VW "The biggest name in contemporary English music", so perhaps they weren't fully up-to-speed with developments over the previous 20 years or so.
"All the world is birthday cake" - George Harrison

Pohjolas Daughter

Quote from: DaveF on December 17, 2023, 12:47:31 PMWith apologies for butting in: it is attributed here https://www.classicalsource.com/prom/ralph-vaughan-williams/ to "a celebrated 1950s' record guide" (presumably Gramophone).  The full quote begins by calling VW "The biggest name in contemporary English music", so perhaps they weren't fully up-to-speed with developments over the previous 20 years or so.
Thank you...I'll read it in full (hopefully) a bit later...holidays!  Who runs the website and what kind of credentials do they have?  At first glance, I'm not seeing any info and I'm not familiar with it?

PD
Pohjolas Daughter

Irons

Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on December 17, 2023, 05:31:26 AMWhere is that quote from Irons?

PD

Own up time, PD. I took that quote horribly out of context.

From 'The Record Guide' Edward Sackville-West and Desmond Shawe-Taylor.
You must have a very good opinion of yourself to write a symphony - John Ireland.

I opened the door people rushed through and I was left holding the knob - Bo Diddley.

vandermolen

#6468
I posted enthusiastically about this CD on WAYLTN thread but I have enjoyed it so much that I thought that I'd mention it here as well. The performance of the darkly searching and eloquent String Quartet No.2 (1944) is the best I have heard. As the note-writer states it is reminiscent of the contemporary string quartets by Shostakovich, which VW almost certainly didn't know. It pre-echoes the 6th Symphony of a few years later. The Holst work was new to me but also very engaging. A fine release:
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Oates


Roasted Swan

So yesterday was a first listen to the new Dutton/RVW disc;



First thing to say is its been very well played/performed/recorded by all concerned.  Two of the three scores exist because of Martin Yates' skill and adeptness at not just orchestrating idiomatically from short scores but - as is the case in "The Future" - having to compose extended passages with little or no indication of what RVW might have written.

I'm sure we all have different parameters of what makes a reconstruction/orchestration "work" and I know some dislike the idea of any such attempt.  Both "The Future" and "The Steersman" come from the 1st decade of the 20th centruy when RVW was working primarily on The Sea Symphony.  Apparently the Steersman was initially written as an extra movement (to be played before the long finale).  This exists in a short-score draft so "all" Yates had to do was orchestrate it.  The Sea Symphony fingerprints are pretty clear and baritone soloistJacques Imbrailo is excellent - so an interesting appendix along the lines of Mahler's "Blumine" as part of Symphony 1 perhaps.

The Future is big - a single 33:01 minute span and in its own right impressive and enjoyable - with that kind of ardent-eyed optimism of Ireland's "These Things Shall Be".  Somehow it doesn't sound very RVW-ish - the choral writing works well but feels rather foursquare and the melodic shapes don't have that unique feel that RVW seemed to conjur at will.  So I can enjoy this as a fine piece in its own right but for me there's too much conjecture and sincere pastiche to be called "real" RVW. (I was uneasy about Yates' skilled 'creation' of Moeran's Symphony No.2 for the same reasons...)

The Fantasia for Piano & Orchestra gets another fine performance although not one to displace the Bebbington version - here pianist Andrew von Oeyen is excellent - about 1:00 quicker than Bebbington.  The piece itself strikes me as less compelling than much even early RVW.  A bit too flashy and splashy and trying to be virtuosic for me.

The disc opens with "Flourish for Glorious John".  Only the 2nd recording I know - Slatkin included it in his RVW cycle on the disc with Symphonies 8&9.  I much prefer the dynamic Slatkin at 1:34 to the overly laboured and uncelebratory Yates at 3:05 - is there a cut/untaken repeat in Slatkin??  Whatever - Slatkin's 'feel' is far better for an uplifting miniature like this.....

So something of a niche disc which a RVW obsessive like me must have - but hard to forcefully recommend to the less committed!

relm1

Quote from: Roasted Swan on March 22, 2024, 04:19:02 AMSo yesterday was a first listen to the new Dutton/RVW disc;



First thing to say is its been very well played/performed/recorded by all concerned.  Two of the three scores exist because of Martin Yates' skill and adeptness at not just orchestrating idiomatically from short scores but - as is the case in "The Future" - having to compose extended passages with little or no indication of what RVW might have written.

I'm sure we all have different parameters of what makes a reconstruction/orchestration "work" and I know some dislike the idea of any such attempt.  Both "The Future" and "The Steersman" come from the 1st decade of the 20th centruy when RVW was working primarily on The Sea Symphony.  Apparently the Steersman was initially written as an extra movement (to be played before the long finale).  This exists in a short-score draft so "all" Yates had to do was orchestrate it.  The Sea Symphony fingerprints are pretty clear and baritone soloistJacques Imbrailo is excellent - so an interesting appendix along the lines of Mahler's "Blumine" as part of Symphony 1 perhaps.

The Future is big - a single 33:01 minute span and in its own right impressive and enjoyable - with that kind of ardent-eyed optimism of Ireland's "These Things Shall Be".  Somehow it doesn't sound very RVW-ish - the choral writing works well but feels rather foursquare and the melodic shapes don't have that unique feel that RVW seemed to conjur at will.  So I can enjoy this as a fine piece in its own right but for me there's too much conjecture and sincere pastiche to be called "real" RVW. (I was uneasy about Yates' skilled 'creation' of Moeran's Symphony No.2 for the same reasons...)

The Fantasia for Piano & Orchestra gets another fine performance although not one to displace the Bebbington version - here pianist Andrew von Oeyen is excellent - about 1:00 quicker than Bebbington.  The piece itself strikes me as less compelling than much even early RVW.  A bit too flashy and splashy and trying to be virtuosic for me.

The disc opens with "Flourish for Glorious John".  Only the 2nd recording I know - Slatkin included it in his RVW cycle on the disc with Symphonies 8&9.  I much prefer the dynamic Slatkin at 1:34 to the overly laboured and uncelebratory Yates at 3:05 - is there a cut/untaken repeat in Slatkin??  Whatever - Slatkin's 'feel' is far better for an uplifting miniature like this.....

So something of a niche disc which a RVW obsessive like me must have - but hard to forcefully recommend to the less committed!

I picked this up too but mine hasn't arrived yet.  In Kennedy's book, he says "The Future" is incomplete as the sketches ended part way through as if it was abandoned.  So, it wasn't just in need of orchestration but a completion. 

calyptorhynchus

Quote from: Roasted Swan on March 22, 2024, 04:19:02 AMSo yesterday was a first listen to the new Dutton/RVW disc;



The Future is big - a single 33:01 minute span and in its own right impressive and enjoyable - with that kind of ardent-eyed optimism of Ireland's "These Things Shall Be".

 ;D I love the idea of the Future being abandoned!  ;D
'Many men are melancholy by hearing music, but it is a pleasing melancholy that it causeth.' Robert Burton

vandermolen

Quote from: Roasted Swan on March 22, 2024, 04:19:02 AMSo yesterday was a first listen to the new Dutton/RVW disc;



First thing to say is its been very well played/performed/recorded by all concerned.  Two of the three scores exist because of Martin Yates' skill and adeptness at not just orchestrating idiomatically from short scores but - as is the case in "The Future" - having to compose extended passages with little or no indication of what RVW might have written.

I'm sure we all have different parameters of what makes a reconstruction/orchestration "work" and I know some dislike the idea of any such attempt.  Both "The Future" and "The Steersman" come from the 1st decade of the 20th centruy when RVW was working primarily on The Sea Symphony.  Apparently the Steersman was initially written as an extra movement (to be played before the long finale).  This exists in a short-score draft so "all" Yates had to do was orchestrate it.  The Sea Symphony fingerprints are pretty clear and baritone soloistJacques Imbrailo is excellent - so an interesting appendix along the lines of Mahler's "Blumine" as part of Symphony 1 perhaps.

The Future is big - a single 33:01 minute span and in its own right impressive and enjoyable - with that kind of ardent-eyed optimism of Ireland's "These Things Shall Be".  Somehow it doesn't sound very RVW-ish - the choral writing works well but feels rather foursquare and the melodic shapes don't have that unique feel that RVW seemed to conjur at will.  So I can enjoy this as a fine piece in its own right but for me there's too much conjecture and sincere pastiche to be called "real" RVW. (I was uneasy about Yates' skilled 'creation' of Moeran's Symphony No.2 for the same reasons...)

The Fantasia for Piano & Orchestra gets another fine performance although not one to displace the Bebbington version - here pianist Andrew von Oeyen is excellent - about 1:00 quicker than Bebbington.  The piece itself strikes me as less compelling than much even early RVW.  A bit too flashy and splashy and trying to be virtuosic for me.

The disc opens with "Flourish for Glorious John".  Only the 2nd recording I know - Slatkin included it in his RVW cycle on the disc with Symphonies 8&9.  I much prefer the dynamic Slatkin at 1:34 to the overly laboured and uncelebratory Yates at 3:05 - is there a cut/untaken repeat in Slatkin??  Whatever - Slatkin's 'feel' is far better for an uplifting miniature like this.....

So something of a niche disc which a RVW obsessive like me must have - but hard to forcefully recommend to the less committed!
Thanks very much for the helpful review RS. This is in my Dutton shopping basket but I have not, as yet, clicked on 'purchase' - (no witty responses please  ;D ). I'm also interested in the Damase release as I enjoyed his 'Symphonie' so much.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).