Vaughan Williams's Veranda

[vandermolen]

Re: Symphony 9
It is one of my favourite scores although I prefer the outer two movements. I think that Bryden Thomson was underrated and I really like his version coupled with the Piano Concerto. Stokowski's account is incredibly gripping as are both by Boult, the earlier one recorded on the day of the composer's death (he had been due to attend the recording session). The harps at the end are best realised in Handley's recording. I also like Slatkin's performance very much. I realise that the question was not addressed to me.

[Karl Henning]

Share every observation and love the Ninth since I heard it (actually, I heard only the mysterious final chords on the Radio when I hurried home as a school boy and had become an RVW addict already, but with limited access to his music; acquired an LP with the Previn recording some years later). By far my favourite recording of these two middle movements, because they reveal all the anguish and resignation, is the one by Bryden Thomson. Am still waiting for a recording that convinces me in all four movements (find Thomson too 'hushed' in the opening movement).

Not that it addresses your concerns (I have not listened to as many of the recordings as you have), but have you heard the Bakels?  If so, what do you think of it?

[Sergeant Rock]

Not that it addresses your concerns (I have not listened to as many of the recordings as you have), but have you heard the Bakels?  If so, what do you think of it?

Bakels is one of my three favorite versions (Haitink, Bakels, Thomson). He is quicker in the outer movements than Haitink, providing a nice alternative take on the music. MusicWeb has this to say:

"[Bakels] recordings of the VW symphonies have been underrated which is surprising considering his very passionate and exciting way with VW's music. His tempos for the 9th are very close to those of Thomson and certainly he presses the music in a manner that only Thomson matches. Naxos provides him with a wide-ranging recording with extremely impressive bass. His account is coupled with an equally intense account of the 5th Symphony. If I slightly prefer the Thomson it is because that version is even more relentless in its nihilistic view of this extremely enigmatic and magnificent work."

And the Huwitzer:

"Bakel's performances are extremely exciting, especially his Ninth Symphony, which is a revelation. It may be that the fast tempos compromise what some consider the music's "transcendental" qualities, but that's a small loss when the interpretation gives the work so much more coherence and urgency then usual."


Sarge

[Karl Henning]

Cheers, Sarge!  It is too long since I listened to it, but it was indeed the Bakels recording which introduced me to the work, and I loved it from the start.

[vandermolen]

I see that the forthcoming Andrew Davis/Bergen PO recording of Symphony 9 and Job is being presented as a completion of the Richard Hickox cycle which presumably means that he will record Sinfonia Antartica as well. Then I expect that Chandos will release a Hickox/Davis boxed set of the complete symphonies.

[vandermolen]

Let us know what you think.  It's a bit pricey for me but the sound samples of Job sound fantastic but I hate the 9th being so quick in tempo during the last movement.  Previn/LSO is my favorite of this work and part of that is the pacing is so spot on plus the horns play as if their lives depended on it.  I love how movement 3 is such a crazy tempo but the very contrasting slow last movement really bookends the work to my ears.  I feel this music speaks more clearly when the pacing is Mahlerian in the final movement IMO.  It really helps the pathos come through and then a gradual increase in tempo to the ending until the coda which should be very slow.  Just my opinion.  I hate how Haitink ignores the dynamics of the score in favor of a softer feel.  I worry Andrew Davis falls into the safe category rather than the dramatic/intense school.

I just listened to the sample extracts on the Chandos website and very much agree with you. Job sounds terrific and idiomatic but the final movement of the Ninth Symphony does indeed sound rushed which is a shame. This is what Sargent did at the first performance.

[relm1]

I just listened to the sample extracts on the Chandos website and very much agree with you. Job sounds terrific and idiomatic but the final movement of the Ninth Symphony does indeed sound rushed which is a shame. This is what Sargent did at the first performance.

Damn it!  I hate when I'm right. 

[Mirror Image]

I love every single one of his symphonies.  The 9th has some very beautiful moments but the range of expression is immense.  It made such an impression on me that I have this book about it. https://www.amazon.com/Vaughan-Williamss-Symphony-Structure-Interpretation/dp/0198162847

Structurally, it does remind me of Mahler's 9th with two chaotic scherzo's in the middle that are bookended with tense and grave large outer movements.  It is a questioning symphony full of bleakness that builds.  The last movement takes some of the themes from the first movement but extends them and develops them with more dramatic form.  I absolutely love the unexpected anguish of the coda as the symphony tries to land on E major.  For me, that rising trombone melody (at 12:26) is so full of pathos and devastatingly aching but there is brief catharsis in the final seconds.   Have we ever heard anything from RVW that is more anguished?  https://youtu.be/V9CK-ZVvoDE?t=712

But the E major is achieved in the final smashing chords as we recall music from RVW's early work "the Solent" and music dissolves into oblivion.  That E major resolution just seems like it came at such a great cost.  This is the end of a long journey of a great composer.

Thanks for your wonderfully vivid post, relm1. I'll definitely keep my ears perked up whenever I revisit the 9th, which won't be too much longer as my survey of the symphonies brings me to the 6th next.

[Mirror Image]

When it comes to RVW's symphonies, I seem to be firmly in three different camps: Previn, Boult (EMI), and Thomson. I still don't think much of Haitink's traversal, but admittedly it has been some time since I've revisited that cycle. The wild card of the bunch seems to be Rozhdestvensky, which I don't have any interest in as I'm not too intrigued by the idea of RVW being performed with a Russian orchestra, soloists, etc. Sorry, it's just not for me. I will say my buddy Jeffrey (Vandermolden) sent me a wonderful Rozhdestvensky recording of the 5th and Sancta Civitas with the BBC Symphony Orchestra. I also still admire much of Handley's cycle with the London Philharmonic. I never cared much for Slatkin, the Naxos cycle (Daniel/Bakels), or Andrew Davis' earlier cycle. That about covers the available cycles. We'll have to wait for Manze to complete his survey, but, so far, I'm not impressed. Everything sounds right, but there's some magic missing in the performances. It just sounds rather lifeless.

[snyprrr]

The whole 1st Page of the Composer Dussion has been taken over by the Cowpat Army! watch your step

[vandermolen]

Damn it!  I hate when I'm right. 

Yes but remember that I've only heard a 90 second sample. I may feel differently when I've heard the whole thing. It's been sent out today. 

[vandermolen]

The whole 1st Page of the Composer Dussion has been taken over by the Cowpat Army! watch your step

Hehe. I'm not sure that Haydn, Tchaikovsky and Bruckner would agree with your 'cowpat school' label.


However, post-Brexit it's important that we reassert British values.

[vandermolen]

When it comes to RVW's symphonies, I seem to be firmly in three different camps: Previn, Boult (EMI), and Thomson. I still don't think much of Haitink's traversal, but admittedly it has been some time since I've revisited that cycle. The wild card of the bunch seems to be Rozhdestvensky, which I don't have any interest in as I'm not too intrigued by the idea of RVW being performed with a Russian orchestra, soloists, etc. Sorry, it's just not for me. I will say my buddy Jeffrey (Vandermolden) sent me a wonderful Rozhdestvensky recording of the 5th and Sancta Civitas with the BBC Symphony Orchestra. I also still admire much of Handley's cycle with the London Philharmonic. I never cared much for Slatkin, the Naxos cycle (Daniel/Bakels), or Andrew Davis' earlier cycle. That about covers the available cycles. We'll have to wait for Manze to complete his survey, but, so far, I'm not impressed. Everything sounds right, but there's some magic missing in the performances. It just sounds rather lifeless.

I agree about Manze but the Elder 'Pastoral' is very good. Norrington is a disaster as far as I'm concerned. Coincidentally yesterday I listened to Boult's EMI version of Symphony 6 which I enjoyed more than ever before although I remain very loyal to his earlier LPO account, the LP issue of which had a huge impact on my wide-eyed 17 year old self. I never liked A Sea Symphony until I heard the Haitink which was a complete revelation to me. Thomson is invariably underrated and I like his cycle along with both by Boult. Previn maybe conducts the greatest 2,3,5 and 8 but 4 and 6 are disappointing which is a shame. Overall his cycle is very strong. I enjoy the Rozhdestvensky, especially where the organ goes haywire in Sinfonia Antartica but I would not choose it as my only set. Overall maybe Boult's EMI set is now my favourite and not to forget Barbirolli's fine recordings (x2) of symphonies 2 and 5, Bernstein's great No.4, Stokowski's wonderfully defiant No.9 and Berglund's Sibelian readings of symphonies 4 and 6 (4 was No.1 choice on BBC 'Building a Library'). I'm sorry that Berglund never recorded a cycle. I'm looking forward to hearing the new Andrew Davis CD. I liked his earlier recording of 9 and 'Job' and his No.6 was very highly rated. Mustn't forget Maurice Abravanel's fine Utah Symphony 6 - he is one of the few to get the mysterious 'Epilogue' right - most conductors rush through it. Boult's LPO account is unrivalled here in my view. Just some rambling thoughts.

[snyprrr]

Hehe. I'm not sure that Haydn, Tchaikovsky and Bruckner would agree with your 'cowpat school' label.


However, post-Brexit it's important that we reassert British values.

No, but sooomeone's going through their EnglishPastoral phase... sooomeone,... who is it?

[Mirror Image]

I agree about Manze but the Elder 'Pastoral' is very good. Norrington is a disaster as far as I'm concerned. Coincidentally yesterday I listened to Boult's EMI version of Symphony 6 which I enjoyed more than ever before although I remain very loyal to his earlier LPO account, the LP issue of which had a huge impact on my wide-eyed 17 year old self. I never liked A Sea Symphony until I heard the Haitink which was a complete revelation to me. Thomson is invariably underrated and I like his cycle along with both by Boult. Previn maybe conducts the greatest 2,3,5 and 8 but 4 and 6 are disappointing which is a shame. Overall his cycle is very strong. I enjoy the Rozhdestvensky, especially where the organ goes haywire in Sinfonia Antartica but I would not choose it as my only set. Overall maybe Boult's EMI set is now my favourite and not to forget Barbirolli's fine recordings (x2) of symphonies 2 and 5, Bernstein's great No.4, Stokowski's wonderfully defiant No.9 and Berglund's Sibelian readings of symphonies 4 and 6 (4 was No.1 choice on BBC 'Building a Library'). I'm sorry that Berglund never recorded a cycle. I'm looking forward to hearing the new Andrew Davis CD. I liked his earlier recording of 9 and 'Job' and his No.6 was very highly rated. Mustn't forget Maurice Abravanel's fine Utah Symphony 6 - he is one of the few to get the mysterious 'Epilogue' right - most conductors rush through it. Boult's LPO account is unrivalled here in my view. Just some rambling thoughts.

Thanks for the feedback, Jeffrey, but how do you feel overall about Haitink's cycle? As I mentioned earlier, it may be time I need to revisit his cycle. I agree with you about Elder's Pastoral, most certainly the best RVW he's done IMHO. All of the other works on that Elder/Halle disc (Five Variants on Dives and Lazarus, the Tallis Fantasia, and The Wasps' Overture) are also extremely well-done. Certainly one of my favorite RVW recordings to come out more recently. Also, what do you think of Handley's cycle with the LPO?

[vandermolen]

Thanks for the feedback, Jeffrey, but how do you feel overall about Haitink's cycle? As I mentioned earlier, it may be time I need to revisit his cycle. I agree with you about Elder's Pastoral, most certainly the best RVW he's done IMHO. All of the other works on that Elder/Halle disc (Five Variants on Dives and Lazarus, the Tallis Fantasia, and The Wasps' Overture) are also extremely well-done. Certainly one of my favorite RVW recordings to come out more recently. Also, what do you think of Handley's cycle with the LPO?

Like you John I think that I need to revisit the Haitink cycle. His performance of 'A Sea Symphony' is, as far as I'm concerned, in a class of its own and superior to any other. Hearing this performance resulted in me completely changing my mind about the work, although the best music is definitely in the final movement. I would not be without this performance. Haitink's 'Antartica' is also supposed to be outstanding but it is a while since I heard it. I also like his Symphony 6 which some reviewers are quite sniffy about. I am also revising my opinion of the Handley RLPO cycle. For years I thought that it was 'good - but not great' and would not have chosen any of his recordings as my first choice. However, I now think that the CD with symphonies 6 and 9 on is outstanding - especially for the clarity of the harps at the very end of Symphony 9. Otherwise I would say that the Handley recordings are 'all good but nothing special'.

[Mirror Image]

Like you John I think that I need to revisit the Haitink cycle. His performance of 'A Sea Symphony' is, as far as I'm concerned, in a class of its own and superior to any other. Hearing this performance resulted in me completely changing my mind about the work, although the best music is definitely in the final movement. I would not be without this performance. Haitink's 'Antartica' is also supposed to be outstanding but it is a while since I heard it. I also like his Symphony 6 which some reviewers are quite sniffy about. I am also revising my opinion of the Handley RLPO cycle. For years I thought that it was 'good - but not great' and would not have chosen any of his recordings as my first choice. However, I now think that the CD with symphonies 6 and 9 on is outstanding - especially for the clarity of the harps at the very end of Symphony 9. Otherwise I would say that the Handley recordings are 'all good but nothing special'.

Sorry, I meant Handley and the RLPO...my medication wasn't quite in effect whenever I made that last post. Yeah, Handley is definitely not a first-choice for me as those honors go to Previn, Boult (EMI), and Thomson, but Handley's cycle has a lot to admire about it as he seems to have a bit more of a cerebral approach to the music than say the white-hot intensity of Previn for example. I always thought Boult had a bit more of an intellectual approach to the music as well, so I see, naturally, that Handley is a successor of Boult. Thomson has a more modernist approach with a bit of an edge to the performances, which I quite appreciate, especially in the more modernistic symphonies like the 4th and 6th through the 9th, but Thomson did impress me greatly with his 3rd and 5th. Thomson just seems a bit more wild in his view of RVW and he seems to be able to accent certain sections in many of these symphonies that sometimes are glossed over.

[Mirror Image]

Let me ask my fellow RVW fanatics something: what do you guys think of David Willcocks' recordings of various choral works on EMI? Are the performances worth buying? How's the audio quality? Any kind of feedback would be appreciated as I've had my eyes on his recordings for quite some time. Thanks.

[vandermolen]

Sorry, I meant Handley and the RLPO...my medication wasn't quite in effect whenever I made that last post. Yeah, Handley is definitely not a first-choice for me as those honors go to Previn, Boult (EMI), and Thomson, but Handley's cycle has a lot to admire about it as he seems to have a bit more of a cerebral approach to the music than say the white-hot intensity of Previn for example. I always thought Boult had a bit more of an intellectual approach to the music as well, so I see, naturally, that Handley is a successor of Boult. Thomson has a more modernist approach with a bit of an edge to the performances, which I quite appreciate, especially in the more modernistic symphonies like the 4th and 6th through the 9th, but Thomson did impress me greatly with his 3rd and 5th. Thomson just seems a bit more wild in his view of RVW and he seems to be able to accent certain sections in many of these symphonies that sometimes are glossed over.

Handley only recorded a complete cycle with the RLPO John although there were earlier versions of symphonies 2 and 6 with the LPO. The earlier 2 is excellent but the recording and performance of 6 is not nearly as good as the RLPO version. All those Willcocks recordings are outstanding as is his wonderful performance of Howells's 'Hymnus Paradisi'.

[Karl Henning]

Let me ask my fellow RVW fanatics something: what do you guys think of David Willcocks' recordings of various choral works on EMI? Are the performances worth buying? How's the audio quality? Any kind of feedback would be appreciated as I've had my eyes on his recordings for quite some time. Thanks.

Well, Willcocks was The Man (among numerous peers) in Anglican choral music, and that is exactly the milieu RVW was steeped in;  so those recordings are as idiomatic as idiomatic can be 

All the RVW in this box is conducted by Willcocks;  the audio quality is clear and fine (cathedral ambience, which is proper, not mic-in-larynx).  (And all the Holst & Finzi are also worthwhile.)

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