Vaughan Williams's Veranda

[Oates]

I meant to add that Jonathan Pearson has just uploaded a complete RVW discography to the RVW Society website - can be downloaded here:

https://rvwsociety.com/discography/

The list gives details of 2,564 separate recordings of Vaughan Williams music. An epic work of scholarship! 

[Pohjolas Daughter]

Thanks for telling us about that discography.  Wow, what a labor of love!

Must admit, I have mixed feelings about 'lost works' being completed by others.  One wonders sometimes, whether or not the composer just lost interest in them....maybe not feeling very good about them or having issues with certain parts and not feeling like they have the solution, etc.   I think in part it also has to do with how far along in the composing of the work it is too.  This is probably a topic for a whole different thread, but in terms of Vaughan Williams, what do others think here?  There's also a different aspect of recording early works which the composer never was keen on and/or had seldom been performed during his lifetime.

There's the flip side of being enamored with a composer's works and feeling like you want to hear every bit from 'scribbles' to early works, unfinished ones, etc.

Thoughts folks?

PD

[Roasted Swan]

Thanks for telling us about that discography.  Wow, what a labor of love!

Must admit, I have mixed feelings about 'lost works' being completed by others.  One wonders sometimes, whether or not the composer just lost interest in them....maybe not feeling very good about them or having issues with certain parts and not feeling like they have the solution, etc.   I think in part it also has to do with how far along in the composing of the work it is too.  This is probably a topic for a whole different thread, but in terms of Vaughan Williams, what do others think here?  There's also a different aspect of recording early works which the composer never was keen on and/or had seldom been performed during his lifetime.

There's the flip side of being enamored with a composer's works and feeling like you want to hear every bit from 'scribbles' to early works, unfinished ones, etc.

Thoughts folks?

PD

I have a self-serving hypocritical point of view regarding completions etc.  If I like the resulting piece - its an excellent idea and well worth doing, if I don't its a travesty and the unfinished/incomplete piece should be left in peace(!)

Of course - that's a slightly facetious simplification.....  where there are extensive sketches/writings about a work and we know that a composer was trying/expecting to complete it I think a conjectural completion by a sympathetic composer is interesting on the understanding that it is only conjectural.  Where a composer has left a work incomplete/unfinished years before death or whatever, I suspect we should accept their decision to move on from that piece.  So its the completion or orchestrations of juvenalia that often leave me more questioning their worth.

[Pohjolas Daughter]

I have a self-serving hypocritical point of view regarding completions etc.  If I like the resulting piece - its an excellent idea and well worth doing, if I don't its a travesty and the unfinished/incomplete piece should be left in peace(!)

Well put!  I understand the feeling!

Of course - that's a slightly facetious simplification.....  where there are extensive sketches/writings about a work and we know that a composer was trying/expecting to complete it I think a conjectural completion by a sympathetic composer is interesting on the understanding that it is only conjectural.  Where a composer has left a work incomplete/unfinished years before death or whatever, I suspect we should accept their decision to move on from that piece.  So its the completion or orchestrations of juvenalia that often leave me more questioning their worth.

Agreed.  Do I really want to hear something that they wrote aged 10?  Or possibly some of their first efforts from their composition classes.....ummm? 

Which of Vaughan Williams works that have been completed/reconstructed do you enjoy RS?

Best wishes,

PD

EDIT:  By the way, looking quickly at articles in the RVW journals, I ran across this one.  The title intrigued me.  Has anyone here read it?   It's from issue No. 53.  Ralph Vaughan Williams, Leos Janacek and Jean Sibelius – James Lyon

[Oates]

I tend to think of these kind of works in two ways.

Firstly, if the composer has deliberately kept something under wraps because they aren't satisfied with it or think it is under par, then you could argue that any revival is disrespecting those wishes, which is easy to do when they are dead. But sometimes, the composer's own instincts aren't always in accord with the listener. Some great works of art in many genres have been belittled or suppressed by their creators and time has proved them to be probably wrong.

Secondly, if someone finds a brilliant score by Vaughan Williams that just happens to be unfinished, and which the composer clearly intended to be heard but for whatever reason didn't manage to get around to finishing, can't we be treated to a performance or recording that just stops dead midstream at the end of manuscript? It may be aesthetically jarring but at least we know where we are! Is there a musical equivalent of the Mystery of Edwin Drood or Weir of Hermiston?   

[Pohjolas Daughter]

I tend to think of these kind of works in two ways.

Firstly, if the composer has deliberately kept something under wraps because they aren't satisfied with it or think it is under par, then you could argue that any revival is disrespecting those wishes, which is easy to do when they are dead. But sometimes, the composer's own instincts aren't always in accord with the listener. Some great works of art in many genres have been belittled or suppressed by their creators and time has proved them to be probably wrong.

Secondly, if someone finds a brilliant score by Vaughan Williams that just happens to be unfinished, and which the composer clearly intended to be heard but for whatever reason didn't manage to get around to finishing, can't we be treated to a performance or recording that just stops dead midstream at the end of manuscript? It may be aesthetically jarring but at least we know where we are! Is there a musical equivalent of the Mystery of Edwin Drood or Weir of Hermiston?   

Yes, some composers (from an outsider's view) can be too critical about their works and either tuck them away into a drawer or worse (toss/burn them).  Sometimes, they have been 'kept alive' by musicians or other folks.  If I'm recalling correctly, some of Janacek's piano works were discarded, but a pianist was able to hide away 2 out of 3 of the works or movements (one lost irretrievably) and Janacek later changed his mind.

I would (if properly orchestrated by the composer) love to hear a work that way....or at least, if someone is attempting to finish a work, I'd like to know at what point the composer stopped writing.

I wonder whether or not they will broadcast the performance live of "The Future"?  I'd be interested in hearing it.   

PD

[Oates]

It would appear there is big splash being planned by the RVW Society for 2022 for the 150th birthday celebrations, which curiously enough is noted as "the last major anniversary before RVW goes out of copyright."

https://rvwsociety.com/rvw150/

I wonder if The Future is being held back for then.

It is an interesting comment about the copyright - I am right in thinking that this will mean performances and recordings will be more economically viable (or less expensive) to mount henceforth? Or will anyone who has access to RVW manuscripts be able to rework them without permission etc.

[Pohjolas Daughter]

It would appear there is big splash being planned by the RVW Society for 2022 for the 150th birthday celebrations, which curiously enough is noted as "the last major anniversary before RVW goes out of copyright."

https://rvwsociety.com/rvw150/

I wonder if The Future is being held back for then.

It is an interesting comment about the copyright - I am right in thinking that this will mean performances and recordings will be more economically viable (or less expensive) to mount henceforth? Or will anyone who has access to RVW manuscripts be able to rework them without permission etc.

Good questions Oates.  I ran across this website (don't know how accurate it is).  I found it to be interesting anyway.  https://logosfoundation.org/copyleft/public_domain_composers.html  Wonder whether or not some of our online composers here could answer that?

Yes, it looks like 2028 is 70 years from date of death.  I wonder who gets his (Vaughan Williams') royalties?  Or if it varies?  He didn't have any children.  Did Ursula leave them to the RVW Society or???

PD

[calyptorhynchus]

Thanks for telling us about that discography.  Wow, what a labor of love!

Must admit, I have mixed feelings about 'lost works' being completed by others.  One wonders sometimes, whether or not the composer just lost interest in them....maybe not feeling very good about them or having issues with certain parts and not feeling like they have the solution, etc.   I think in part it also has to do with how far along in the composing of the work it is too.  This is probably a topic for a whole different thread, but in terms of Vaughan Williams, what do others think here?  There's also a different aspect of recording early works which the composer never was keen on and/or had seldom been performed during his lifetime.

There's the flip side of being enamored with a composer's works and feeling like you want to hear every bit from 'scribbles' to early works, unfinished ones, etc.

Thoughts folks?

PD

I think that completions of composers' work are worth trying and you just have to assess the results on their merits. But there are various categories where it's worth trying
1. Where the composer did complete a work and parts were lost, I believe that this is the case for the final fugue of Bach's Art of Fugue and the finale of Bruckner's Ninth.
2. Where the composer ran out of time but left enough indications of how to complete the work ie Holmboe's String Quartet no.21 completed by Nordgard, or Ivanovs Symphony No.21
A third category is where the composer couldn't solve a problem in composition but others can. I can't think of an example but one might have been Sibelius's Eighth. If this had survived as a MS or various alternative MSs which the composer had been unwilling to complete I'm sure there would have been versions published (BTW my theory as to why he couldn't publish the 8th was that it refused to return to the original key and Sibelius was too conservative to contemplate a symphony with progressive tonality).

[Pohjolas Daughter]

I think that completions of composers' work are worth trying and you just have to assess the results on their merits. But there are various categories where it's worth trying
1. Where the composer did complete a work and parts were lost, I believe that this is the case for the final fugue of Bach's Art of Fugue and the finale of Bruckner's Ninth.
2. Where the composer ran out of time but left enough indications of how to complete the work ie Holmboe's String Quartet no.21 completed by Nordgard, or Ivanovs Symphony No.21
A third category is where the composer couldn't solve a problem in composition but others can. I can't think of an example but one might have been Sibelius's Eighth. If this had survived as a MS or various alternative MSs which the composer had been unwilling to complete I'm sure there would have been versions published (BTW my theory as to why he couldn't publish the 8th was that it refused to return to the original key and Sibelius was too conservative to contemplate a symphony with progressive tonality).

Good point about when parts are lost.  Hopefully, there are remaining sketches, comments or notes?  Interesting thoughts about someone else solving 'existing' problems too.    Anyway, I don't want to side-track this thread, but I have appreciated reading your thoughts and insights.

PD

p.s. Pretty bird!  Do you own one or just enjoy watching them in the wild?  Sorry side-tracking here! 

[Roasted Swan]

Well put!  I understand the feeling!
Agreed.  Do I really want to hear something that they wrote aged 10?  Or possibly some of their first efforts from their composition classes.....ummm? 

Which of Vaughan Williams works that have been completed/reconstructed do you enjoy RS?

Best wishes,

PD

EDIT:  By the way, looking quickly at articles in the RVW journals, I ran across this one.  The title intrigued me.  Has anyone here read it?   It's from issue No. 53.  Ralph Vaughan Williams, Leos Janacek and Jean Sibelius – James Lyon

I think film score & Incidental Music reconstructions (not just by RVW - but the complete Scott of the Antarctic on Dutton is cracking) are very valid.  All too often excellent music cues get lost on the cutting room floor or the scores/parts have been mislaid so reconstruction is both valuable and important.  I like the early Vaughan Williams tone poems;  The Solent/Harnham Down & Burley Heath.  Not because they are vintage RVW but because they show how early on he was finding ways to break free of the Austro/German influences - even before he studied with Ravel.  The early chamber music is interesting too but more to signpost how far he would travel in finding a unique voice.  Recently the "Saraband - Helen" that was a coupling on Brabbins' Symphonies 3&4 got a lot of good press but I must admit again for me the interest was the signposts that work contains (to the Serenade in that case) rather than being something exceptional in its own right.

The earlier post about reconstructions being valid where a composer has run out of time I think is very true.  Personally I would include the Elgar 3 there which I love because there is a definite sense that Elgar would have completed this if he could even though he allegedly told Willy Reed that the symphony should not be completed under any circumstances.  Whereas the Moeran 2 I find to be a rather sad and pale imitation of a composer who had simply lost the capacity to compose in a coherent manner.  The result I find rather tragic....

the Bax early Symphony is certainly a work that should have stayed as a piano score - interesting for the scholar but frankly boring and overblown for anyone else.

[vandermolen]

Wow, I hope that gets a recording!

+1

[vandermolen]

Thanks for telling us about that discography.  Wow, what a labor of love!

Must admit, I have mixed feelings about 'lost works' being completed by others.  One wonders sometimes, whether or not the composer just lost interest in them....maybe not feeling very good about them or having issues with certain parts and not feeling like they have the solution, etc.   I think in part it also has to do with how far along in the composing of the work it is too.  This is probably a topic for a whole different thread, but in terms of Vaughan Williams, what do others think here?  There's also a different aspect of recording early works which the composer never was keen on and/or had seldom been performed during his lifetime.

There's the flip side of being enamored with a composer's works and feeling like you want to hear every bit from 'scribbles' to early works, unfinished ones, etc.

Thoughts folks?

PD

Very much agree PD. There are some works worth reviving (Piano Quintet, Heroic Elegy and Triumphal Procession) but not all of them IMO.

[Pohjolas Daughter]

I think film score & Incidental Music reconstructions (not just by RVW - but the complete Scott of the Antarctic on Dutton is cracking) are very valid.  All too often excellent music cues get lost on the cutting room floor or the scores/parts have been mislaid so reconstruction is both valuable and important.  I like the early Vaughan Williams tone poems;  The Solent/Harnham Down & Burley Heath.  Not because they are vintage RVW but because they show how early on he was finding ways to break free of the Austro/German influences - even before he studied with Ravel.  The early chamber music is interesting too but more to signpost how far he would travel in finding a unique voice.  Recently the "Saraband - Helen" that was a coupling on Brabbins' Symphonies 3&4 got a lot of good press but I must admit again for me the interest was the signposts that work contains (to the Serenade in that case) rather than being something exceptional in its own right.

The earlier post about reconstructions being valid where a composer has run out of time I think is very true.  Personally I would include the Elgar 3 there which I love because there is a definite sense that Elgar would have completed this if he could even though he allegedly told Willy Reed that the symphony should not be completed under any circumstances.  Whereas the Moeran 2 I find to be a rather sad and pale imitation of a composer who had simply lost the capacity to compose in a coherent manner.  The result I find rather tragic....

the Bax early Symphony is certainly a work that should have stayed as a piano score - interesting for the scholar but frankly boring and overblown for anyone else.

I haven't heard the Dutton/Scott one before.  I'm only familiar with the recording on Chandos.  I remember liking some of the works on The Solent (will revisit that one soon).  Have heard the early chamber one on Hyperion...don't remember being particularly enamored by it (should revisit too).  Haven't heard the Saraband - Helen.  Perhaps I can find it online?  Or borrow it from a library?

Not familiar with the Moeran 2, but interesting to read your thoughts on it. 

Best,

PD

[vandermolen]

Totally agree with RS about the early Bax Symphony - buying it was a big regret. However, I did enjoy the Moeran 2nd Symphony. Elgar's 3rd Symphony was perhaps best of all.

[relm1]

I think film score & Incidental Music reconstructions (not just by RVW - but the complete Scott of the Antarctic on Dutton is cracking) are very valid.  All too often excellent music cues get lost on the cutting room floor or the scores/parts have been mislaid so reconstruction is both valuable and important.  I like the early Vaughan Williams tone poems;  The Solent/Harnham Down & Burley Heath.  Not because they are vintage RVW but because they show how early on he was finding ways to break free of the Austro/German influences - even before he studied with Ravel.  The early chamber music is interesting too but more to signpost how far he would travel in finding a unique voice.  Recently the "Saraband - Helen" that was a coupling on Brabbins' Symphonies 3&4 got a lot of good press but I must admit again for me the interest was the signposts that work contains (to the Serenade in that case) rather than being something exceptional in its own right.

The earlier post about reconstructions being valid where a composer has run out of time I think is very true.  Personally I would include the Elgar 3 there which I love because there is a definite sense that Elgar would have completed this if he could even though he allegedly told Willy Reed that the symphony should not be completed under any circumstances.  Whereas the Moeran 2 I find to be a rather sad and pale imitation of a composer who had simply lost the capacity to compose in a coherent manner.  The result I find rather tragic....

the Bax early Symphony is certainly a work that should have stayed as a piano score - interesting for the scholar but frankly boring and overblown for anyone else.

I disagree.  First, I've done some reconstructions of compositions that were "discovered" in the scraps of a composer after their death or perhaps just the score and parts were lost and all that existed were multiple fragments from which a complete performance can be recreated with reasonable certainty.  I also have done musicological analysis of composers where you need to review the composer's intentions and really place yourself inside their head.  You might not really know it but you benefit from this work.  Here is an example.  The magnum opus of a composer's output was a 65 minute oratorio for soloists, chorus, and large orchestra but no one including his widow knew of this work.  It existed in fragments and pieces.  I spent around a year of very deep and thorough work reconstructing it and consider it a fantastic discovery.  It was performed and recorded last year and hopefully will be released on Naxos (in negotiations).  This will result in this unknown composer being discovered and potentially further works being recorded.  My work is an example of multiple years of deep and through work and your evaluation is the result of a few minutes of listening.  You are entitled to your opinion but I have an opinion of your opinion which I too am entitled to.  I would also add when the composer is one of substantial impact or recognition as RVW is, every work has the right to be heard and judged within a context of the artists journey.  Yes, you might find it a bore but many might find your opinion a far greater bore because we understand the culmination of the artists achievements and how each and every utterance contributed to a better understanding of the whole.

[Roasted Swan]

I disagree.  First, I've done some reconstructions of compositions that were "discovered" in the scraps of a composer after their death or perhaps just the score and parts were lost and all that existed were multiple fragments from which a complete performance can be recreated with reasonable certainty.  I also have done musicological analysis of composers where you need to review the composer's intentions and really place yourself inside their head.  You might not really know it but you benefit from this work.  Here is an example.  The magnum opus of a composer's output was a 65 minute oratorio for soloists, chorus, and large orchestra but no one including his widow knew of this work.  It existed in fragments and pieces.  I spent around a year of very deep and thorough work reconstructing it and consider it a fantastic discovery.  It was performed and recorded last year and hopefully will be released on Naxos (in negotiations).  This will result in this unknown composer being discovered and potentially further works being recorded.  My work is an example of multiple years of deep and through work and your evaluation is the result of a few minutes of listening.  You are entitled to your opinion but I have an opinion of your opinion which I too am entitled to.  I would also add when the composer is one of substantial impact or recognition as RVW is, every work has the right to be heard and judged within a context of the artists journey.  Yes, you might find it a bore but many might find your opinion a far greater bore because we understand the culmination of the artists achievements and how each and every utterance contributed to a better understanding of the whole.

Goodness me - a slightly bristling response!  Of course anyone - performer/composer/reconstructor etc - who has spent a long time considering and working on a score has far deeper insights into that work than a listener can hope to achieve on a few hear-throughs. 

The project you describe sounds very exciting/worthwhile/valuable indeed and if this music does make it to disc exactly the kind of thing I would be delighted to hear.  But the kind of reconstructions I am talking about are most certainly NOT "the culmination of the artist[']s achievements".  These are NOT a Bruckner 9/Mahler 10/Elgar 3.  These are fragments/incomplete works most often put aside by the composers themselves.  As someone else mentioned, composers are not always right in what they discard, but quite often they are.  They have an interest for listeners along the lines of a path not followed perhaps and thereby filling out an appreciation of the composer's wider achievement but often they are not central to that appreciation. 

You mention RVW's works as "having the right to be heard..."  Consider what RVW himself wrote on the scores of some of these works expressly forbidding later performances [for example the early versions of the 2nd Symphony].  Of The Solent RVW wrote "luckily long-since scrapped" when referencing the use of themes from the early work in later scores.  Latterly, the RVW estate - more than any other I can think of - have chosen to allow publication and performance of his early/incomplete works.  As it happens as a lover of his music - I am always pleased to hear more RVW but very rarely do I think the discovered music of anything but peripheral interest....  Hope I haven't bored you

[vandermolen]

Goodness me - a slightly bristling response!  Of course anyone - performer/composer/reconstructor etc - who has spent a long time considering and working on a score has far deeper insights into that work than a listener can hope to achieve on a few hear-throughs. 

The project you describe sounds very exciting/worthwhile/valuable indeed and if this music does make it to disc exactly the kind of thing I would be delighted to hear.  But the kind of reconstructions I am talking about are most certainly NOT "the culmination of the artist[']s achievements".  These are NOT a Bruckner 9/Mahler 10/Elgar 3.  These are fragments/incomplete works most often put aside by the composers themselves.  As someone else mentioned, composers are not always right in what they discard, but quite often they are.  They have an interest for listeners along the lines of a path not followed perhaps and thereby filling out an appreciation of the composer's wider achievement but often they are not central to that appreciation. 

You mention RVW's works as "having the right to be heard..."  Consider what RVW himself wrote on the scores of some of these works expressly forbidding later performances [for example the early versions of the 2nd Symphony].  Of The Solent RVW wrote "luckily long-since scrapped" when referencing the use of themes from the early work in later scores.  Latterly, the RVW estate - more than any other I can think of - have chosen to allow publication and performance of his early/incomplete works.  As it happens as a lover of his music - I am always pleased to hear more RVW but very rarely do I think the discovered music of anything but peripheral interest....  Hope I haven't bored you

Not intended for me I know, but I think that VW was quite wrong to prevent us from hearing the original 'London Symphony'. In particular I think that he cut out the best bit of the Symphony (just before the end) in his 1936 revision, at a time when, I suspect, he was in thrall to Sibelius. So, I'm v glad that Ursula VW did allow us to hear those earlier versions and I wish that VW had stuck at his 1920 revision. However, some of the other early VW scores (issued by Albion records for example) I could have done without ('A Cambridge Mass' for example) even though none of it was as bad (IMO) as that early Bax symphony.

[Christo]

Not intended for me I know, but I think that VW was quite wrong to prevent us from hearing the original 'London Symphony'. In particular I think that he cut out the best bit of the Symphony (just before the end) in his 1936 revision, at a time when, I suspect, he was in thrall to Sibelius. So, I'm v glad that Ursula VW did allow us to hear those earlier versions and I wish that VW had stuck at his 1920 revision. However, some of the other early VW scores (issued by Albion records for example) I could have done without ('A Cambridge Mass' for example) even though none of it was as bad (IMO) as that early Bax symphony.

Speaking about early & completed RVW, I found especially the 1899 Serenade, The Bucolic Suite (1901), the Heroic Elegy & Triumphal Epilogue (1901), The Solent (1903) and also the completion of the slow movement of the unfinished cello concerto, 'Dark Pastoral' (1943/2009) by David Matthews all interesting additions to my understanding of Vaughan Williams and music that can stand on its own feet. 

[Roasted Swan]

Not intended for me I know, but I think that VW was quite wrong to prevent us from hearing the original 'London Symphony'. In particular I think that he cut out the best bit of the Symphony (just before the end) in his 1936 revision, at a time when, I suspect, he was in thrall to Sibelius. So, I'm v glad that Ursula VW did allow us to hear those earlier versions and I wish that VW had stuck at his 1920 revision. However, some of the other early VW scores (issued by Albion records for example) I could have done without ('A Cambridge Mass' for example) even though none of it was as bad (IMO) as that early Bax symphony.

I agree with you completely about the "London" being better in the 1920 revision - but I am so used to the final version that the extra material in both of the preceding versions still surprise me when I hear them!  The Cambridge Mass was a bit of a disappointment.  Perfectly good but in no way "vintage".....