Vaughan Williams's Veranda

[vandermolen]

Speaking about early & completed RVW, I found especially the 1899 Serenade, The Bucolic Suite (1901), the Heroic Elegy & Triumphal Epilogue (1901), The Solent (1903) and also the completion of the slow movement of the unfinished cello concerto, 'Dark Pastoral' (1943/2009) by David Matthews all interesting additions to my understanding of Vaughan Williams and music that can stand on its own feet. 

Oh yes, come to think of it I liked 'Dark Pastoral' as well and the Solent, echoes of which reappear in the 9th Symphony. I must give another listen to the Bucolic Suite and the early Serenade.

[aukhawk]

Secondly, if someone finds a brilliant score by Vaughan Williams that just happens to be unfinished, and which the composer clearly intended to be heard but for whatever reason didn't manage to get around to finishing, can't we be treated to a performance or recording that just stops dead midstream at the end of manuscript? It may be aesthetically jarring but at least we know where we are! Is there a musical equivalent of the Mystery of Edwin Drood or Weir of Hermiston?   

Bach's Art of Fugue, Contrapunctus XIV stops mid-stream.  Many recordings offer a completion but equally many others just stop where the notes stop, invariably a very dramatic moment.

[relm1]

Goodness me - a slightly bristling response!  Of course anyone - performer/composer/reconstructor etc - who has spent a long time considering and working on a score has far deeper insights into that work than a listener can hope to achieve on a few hear-throughs. 

The project you describe sounds very exciting/worthwhile/valuable indeed and if this music does make it to disc exactly the kind of thing I would be delighted to hear.  But the kind of reconstructions I am talking about are most certainly NOT "the culmination of the artist[']s achievements".  These are NOT a Bruckner 9/Mahler 10/Elgar 3.  These are fragments/incomplete works most often put aside by the composers themselves.  As someone else mentioned, composers are not always right in what they discard, but quite often they are.  They have an interest for listeners along the lines of a path not followed perhaps and thereby filling out an appreciation of the composer's wider achievement but often they are not central to that appreciation. 

You mention RVW's works as "having the right to be heard..."  Consider what RVW himself wrote on the scores of some of these works expressly forbidding later performances [for example the early versions of the 2nd Symphony].  Of The Solent RVW wrote "luckily long-since scrapped" when referencing the use of themes from the early work in later scores.  Latterly, the RVW estate - more than any other I can think of - have chosen to allow publication and performance of his early/incomplete works.  As it happens as a lover of his music - I am always pleased to hear more RVW but very rarely do I think the discovered music of anything but peripheral interest....  Hope I haven't bored you

No, you didn't bore me.    And sorry if I came across bristling whatever that means.  Your points are fair and reasonable.  RVW was also very self deprecating so glad we don't often listen to composers judging their own works.  He said he was the biggest cribber since Handel.  They're really not the best ones to assess their own quality.   

[relm1]

Speaking about early & completed RVW, I found especially the 1899 Serenade, The Bucolic Suite (1901), the Heroic Elegy & Triumphal Epilogue (1901), The Solent (1903) and also the completion of the slow movement of the unfinished cello concerto, 'Dark Pastoral' (1943/2009) by David Matthews all interesting additions to my understanding of Vaughan Williams and music that can stand on its own feet. 

+1

[Roasted Swan]

No, you didn't bore me.    And sorry if I came across bristling whatever that means.  Your points are fair and reasonable.  RVW was also very self deprecating so glad we don't often listen to composers judging their own works.  He said he was the biggest cribber since Handel.  They're really not the best ones to assess their own quality.

When you are able to tell us - I'd love to know the composer/piece you have been reconstructing.......

[Pohjolas Daughter]

Very much agree PD. There are some works worth reviving (Piano Quintet, Heroic Elegy and Triumphal Procession) but not all of them IMO.

I'll revisit the Piano Quintet.  I haven't heard of those other works Jeffrey.  What albums are they on?

I disagree.  First, I've done some reconstructions of compositions that were "discovered" in the scraps of a composer after their death or perhaps just the score and parts were lost and all that existed were multiple fragments from which a complete performance can be recreated with reasonable certainty.  I also have done musicological analysis of composers where you need to review the composer's intentions and really place yourself inside their head.  You might not really know it but you benefit from this work.  Here is an example.  The magnum opus of a composer's output was a 65 minute oratorio for soloists, chorus, and large orchestra but no one including his widow knew of this work.  It existed in fragments and pieces.  I spent around a year of very deep and thorough work reconstructing it and consider it a fantastic discovery.  It was performed and recorded last year and hopefully will be released on Naxos (in negotiations).  This will result in this unknown composer being discovered and potentially further works being recorded.  My work is an example of multiple years of deep and through work and your evaluation is the result of a few minutes of listening.  You are entitled to your opinion but I have an opinion of your opinion which I too am entitled to.  I would also add when the composer is one of substantial impact or recognition as RVW is, every work has the right to be heard and judged within a context of the artists journey.  Yes, you might find it a bore but many might find your opinion a far greater bore because we understand the culmination of the artists achievements and how each and every utterance contributed to a better understanding of the whole.

It's certainly true that one gets to see the development of a composer's style, skills, influences, etc. as their career and life unfolds.  And, I'm sure, that scholars find it exciting and rewarding to be able to examine earlier works or discarded and/or incomplete works, fragments and sketches.  How much of it your average music listener will appreciate and want to regularly revisit is a different question of course. 

What an exciting position to be in yourself!  May I ask how did you happen to come across this person's work?  I'm sure that his widow appreciates all of your hard work and care.  I hope that the negotiations go well with Naxos and look forward to hearing more about this composer from you and that we eventually are able to listen to this work....and others too.

Off now to revisit The Solent.

Best wishes,

PD

[vandermolen]

I'll revisit the Piano Quintet.  I haven't heard of those other works Jeffrey.  What albums are they on?
It's certainly true that one gets to see the development of a composer's style, skills, influences, etc. as their career and life unfolds.  And, I'm sure, that scholars find it exciting and rewarding to be able to examine earlier works or discarded and/or incomplete works, fragments and sketches.  How much of it your average music listener will appreciate and want to regularly revisit is a different question of course. 

What an exciting position to be in yourself!  May I ask how did you happen to come across this person's work?  I'm sure that his widow appreciates all of your hard work and care.  I hope that the negotiations go well with Naxos and look forward to hearing more about this composer from you and that we eventually are able to listen to this work....and others too.

Off now to revisit The Solent.

Best wishes,

PD

Hi PD,
There are several recordings of the Piano Quintet but the Naxos is as good as any. The Heroic Elegy... is on Dutton.
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[Oates]

I think film score & Incidental Music reconstructions (not just by RVW - but the complete Scott of the Antarctic on Dutton is cracking) are very valid.  All too often excellent music cues get lost on the cutting room floor or the scores/parts have been mislaid so reconstruction is both valuable and important.

I agree - film and theatre scores are usually complete and approved by the composer. The cutting is usually done by others for reasons not connected with the quality of the music - if a scene is cut from a film, the music goes with it. It's great that efforts are made to present the full scores like Scott film. At least RVW had the good sense to recycle some of his best scores in more permanent forms.

[Pohjolas Daughter]

Hi PD,
There are several recordings of the Piano Quintet but the Naxos is as good as any. The Heroic Elegy... is on Dutton.
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Thanks for the info Jeffrey.

I was able to find the Heroic Elegy and also Dark Pastoral (the slow movement from his cello concerto) online to listen to.  I particularly enjoyed the Dark Pastoral from 1942-43.  I dug through my Kennedy book (quickly) and saw a reference to it under "Uncompleted Works" at the back.  He just lists it as sketches for a cello concerto and that it was intended for Casals.   Unless I missed it, I didn't see anything about it in Chapter 8 (1931-43).  Do the Dutton notes say anything further about it?  And why he never finished it?  I wonder also how far along the sketches were for the other two movements?

I agree - film and theatre scores are usually complete and approved by the composer. The cutting is usually done by others for reasons not connected with the quality of the music - if a scene is cut from a film, the music goes with it. It's great that efforts are made to present the full scores like Scott film. At least RVW had the good sense to recycle some of his best scores in more permanent forms.

I do often enjoy film and theater music and glad that we have gems like Grieg's music to Peer Gynt and Janacek's to Schluck und Jau.  More recent one:  The Piano, I purchased the CD to but was hoping/wishing that the composer (Michael Nyman) had worked to bring a resolution to the main, very haunting, theme.

PD

[Christo]

There are a series of Dutton cds with discarded, completed or orchestrated compositions by Vaughan Williams, especially:

[Pohjolas Daughter]

There are a series of Dutton cds with discarded, completed or orchestrated compositions by Vaughan Williams, especially:

Yes, thanks.  I knew that they had made a number of albums of VW's music.   

PD

[Christo]

Yes, thanks.  I knew that they had made a number of albums of VW's music.   

PD

Some of them dirt cheap at Dutton Vocalion themselves in the Autumn sales (from page 12 on): https://www.duttonvocalion.co.uk/products.php?cat=4&pg=12

[Pohjolas Daughter]

Some of them dirt cheap at Dutton Vocalion themselves in the Autumn sales (from page 12 on): https://www.duttonvocalion.co.uk/products.php?cat=4&pg=12

By the way, are these (the ones that you provided covers of) all albums of VW's music that you really like?  Note:  one of them, the image isn't visible; it's the top row...the one in the middle.

Will take a look, thanks Christo:  the shipping charges could be more than the CDs!

PD

[Christo]

By the way, are these (the ones that you provided covers of) all albums of VW's music that you really like?  Note:  one of them, the image isn't visible; it's the top row...the one in the middle.

Will take a look, thanks Christo:  the shipping charges could be more than the CDs!

PD

I can see all six; the one in the middle, top row, is the complete, reconstructed film score of Scott of the Antarctic, also on Dutton. And yes: I like all of these albums, e.g. also the incidental music to The Blue Bird (1913) and Richard II (1944) to mention two compositions more. 

[relm1]

When you are able to tell us - I'd love to know the composer/piece you have been reconstructing.......

I sure will.  John Pickard said it was beautifully done so I'm quite proud of it and really enjoyed the music at the premiere.  Frankly, it was so much better than I imagined when performed so I hope it gets released.  But my point in all this is really, you shouldn't dismiss so causally these works that don't fit your taste in a listening.  These take so much care and effort to produce and added to the body of our understanding of the artist and their efforts.  Shakespeare should not be dismissed because of a juvenile effort but that should be heard and evaluated accordingly rather than dismissed.  Yes, you are free to find it lousy but others might not and that is the value of exposing it.  I'm sorry (not really) if I came across as harsh but I very strongly feel this.  I want to see the bad rehearsals of the Rite of Spring, not just the polished edition.

[Pohjolas Daughter]

It would appear there is big splash being planned by the RVW Society for 2022 for the 150th birthday celebrations, which curiously enough is noted as "the last major anniversary before RVW goes out of copyright."

https://rvwsociety.com/rvw150/

I wonder if The Future is being held back for then.

It is an interesting comment about the copyright - I am right in thinking that this will mean performances and recordings will be more economically viable (or less expensive) to mount henceforth? Or will anyone who has access to RVW manuscripts be able to rework them without permission etc.

I found this to be of interest.  It's a brief summary of copyright laws and Vaughan Williams' works.  https://rvwsociety.com/copyright/

Best wishes,

PD

[Oates]

A new version of Job from Mark Elder and the Halle has been released. 

[vandermolen]

A new version of Job from Mark Elder and the Halle has been released.

Oh, that's interesting. Job is one of my favourite VW works although I have about every recording. Boult's EMI version and Wordsworth's on Alto are favourites.

[Biffo]

A new version of Job from Mark Elder and the Halle has been released.

Thanks for the tip - I have been waiting for this release. Elder has been consistently good with RVW apart from a rather disappointing Symphonies 4 & 6. A few months ago Elder/Halle performed Sancta Civitas; I am hoping it was recorded for future release.

Edit: Bought Job etc from Amazon, should arrive tomorrow.

[vandermolen]

Thanks for the tip - I have been waiting for this release. Elder has been consistently good with RVW apart from a rather disappointing Symphonies 4 & 6. A few months ago Elder/Halle performed Sancta Civitas; I am hoping it was recorded for future release.

Edit: Bought Job etc from Amazon, should arrive tomorrow.

Agree about Elder in 4 and 6 and Manze was even worse IMO. Elder's No.3 was the only one that I really liked. Interested to hear what you think of Job and the Songs of Travel. Presumably it's the orchestral version of the SOT. I like the orchestral version - it must be about the only VW recorded by Simon Rattle.