Vaughan Williams's Veranda

[Catison]

Dear Lord, man, but you don't get it at all, do you? And it's so simple! Either that or you have a taste for strawmen.

Well, he did reference The Wizard of Oz

[lukeottevanger]

True. It all makes sense now!

[scarpia]

The point about movies is also the result of flawed logic, I think. The wind machine in VW 7 certainly has its origins in the Scott of the Antarctic film score, but there the music is subservient to the image - if we see the action of the wind, we need to hear it too. On stage, as a symphony, this is a wholly different matter, different priorites, different aesthetic, different way of working, different audience expectation - we may have heard hundreds of wind machines in the movies (without really noticing it), but of course it's more shocking and unusual in a symphony. If it isn't shocking, as you're now saying it isn't, then why did it cause you to make all this fuss about it?

I didn't find it shocking.  It just gave me the impression that I was listening to film music, which was a disappointment to me.  I had enjoyed it up to that point.

[greg]

I just listened to the Antarctica Symphony today again and I swear I can't remember hearing the wind machine. Is it played with the chorus?

[scarpia]

I just listened to the Antarctica Symphony today again and I swear I can't remember hearing the wind machine. Is it played with the chorus?

What recording was it?

[M forever]

I haven't read every single post on the last two pages of this thread, but I have read the ones in which Mr O and scarpia quarrel about the use of the wind machine in this piece, and it has made me curious, even though my first expeditions into VW's music did not leave me very impressed. So I listened to the Sinfonia Antarctica twice last night (boult's recording which I downloaded from amazon, and Handley's which a friend sent me). That is actually a fairly interesting piece.

When it comes to the heatedly debated use of the wind machine in this particular piece, I, as an independent judge who doesn't even particularly like VW's music (so far), have to say the way it is used here is pure genius, much beyond a simple naturalistic sound effect. That is not the first time that I had to notice that scarpia often doesn't get contexts and gets stuck on minor, in context not so important preconceptions.

So, sorry scarpia, you lose - big time. Mr O wins. 3:0. 


More details later. I have to go and inhale some food and beer now.

[greg]

What recording was it?

It's from Previn's set.

[greg]

I haven't read every single post on the last two pages of this thread, but I have read the ones in which Mr O and scarpia quarrel about the use of the wind machine in this piece, and it has made me curious, even though my first expeditions into VW's music did not leave me very impressed. So I listened to the Sinfonia Antarctica twice last night (boult's recording which I downloaded from amazon, and Handley's which a friend sent me). That is actually a fairly interesting piece.

When it comes to the heatedly debated use of the wind machine in this particular piece, I, as an independent judge who doesn't even particularly like VW's music (so far), have to say the way it is used here is pure genius, much beyond a simple naturalistic sound effect. That is not the first time that I had to notice that scarpia often doesn't get contexts and gets stuck on minor, in context not so important preconceptions.

So, sorry scarpia, you lose - big time. Mr O wins. 3:0. 


More details later. I have to go and inhale some food and beer now.

So are you saying that it's absolute truth that his use of the wind machine is "good" or are you just saying that you generally don't like his music much (so far) but you like the way the wind machine is used (given the context, etc.)?

[scarpia]

So, sorry scarpia, you lose - big time. Mr O wins. 3:0. 

I would be upset if I was under the misapprehension that my opinions are subject to your review.

[Don]

I would be upset if I was under the misapprehension that my opinions are subject to your review.

M forever often reviews the opinions of others.  You can either live with that fact or pay the reviews no mind.  The choice is yours.

[drogulus]

Because it is a crude device that just makes noise?  Beethoven, Sibelius, Debussy were able to depict storms using their music.  With so much music by these greats, why listen to the efforts of a ham-fisted hack that needs sound effects?

      I think you might be able to make the point that he didn't need it. Anyway, he wanted it for some reason.

      I never liked the wind machine. M, I'm glad you like it. It doesn't ruin anything.

      What else? Oh, Sinfonia Antartica still doesn't seem like a symphony in quite the way 4-5-6 do. I love it anyway.

[greg]

I love it anyway.

I'm starting to love it, too...... it might be my favorite out of the cycle. Just pure magic, out of this world fantasy, man......

[karlhenning]

To offer an opinion in a public forum, is to invite others' reflections upon your opinion.

Right?

[Sean]

M

That [#7] is actually a fairly interesting piece.

Yes indeed it is, VW at his most visionary, and him making use of some of those characteristic intervals that identify him. I've also heard the Boult- I had his LP cycle in my possession once, but got to know it from the Previn LP, along with the Ninth- he has real feeling for these symphonies, more than most Englishmen. I also bought the Haitink on CD, and the work suits his style of course but what he does just isn't as idiomatic.

[drogulus]

     I think Luke is right that the wind machine was intended to represent inhuman nature and not just the sound of the wind, and the resemblance of the wind machine sound to the wind doesn't invalidate that. He wasn't obliged to use a car horn to avoid some nonexistent confusion (let's try a car horn and see what that suggests). The "metaphysical hot air" is something composers share with their listeners, so why not take advantage of that?

    About composers who use conventional means to suggest storms or other natural phenomena: Vaughan Williams is one of them. For example, the Sea Symphony features conventional instrumentation which suggests the movement of the waves, much as Debussy did, though it has been far more influential. When you hear sea music in many contexts, it can often be traced to this work, as in Richard Rodgers, whose Victory at Sea was a huge television event in the '50s. Now all "sea music" you hear in films sounds like RVW, and almost never like La Mer.

     

M

Yes indeed it is, VW at his most visionary, and him making use of some of those characteristic intervals that identify him. I've also heard the Boult- I had his LP cycle in my possession once, but got to know it from the Previn LP, along with the Ninth- he has real feeling for these symphonies, more than most Englishmen. I also bought the Haitink on CD, and the work suits his style of course but what he does just isn't as idiomatic.

     About Haitinks famous Sinfonia recording: It a very good interpretation, but it's too rushed in parts of the first and last movements. In both cases the main theme is treated just a little bit lightly, and some of the grandeur and foreboding, if I may play along here, is understated in comparison to Boult I and II. I would not stretch these themes out to the extent Previn does, though. It's not a major point IMO, since the import of the music comes through. Perhaps here is a sign of the "unidiomatic".

[M forever]

So are you saying that it's absolute truth that his use of the wind machine is "good" or are you just saying that you generally don't like his music much (so far) but you like the way the wind machine is used (given the context, etc.)?

Both.

[M forever]

I would be upset if I was under the misapprehension that my opinions are subject to your review.

I didn't review. I refereed. And you lost. Big time. Sorry. I don't make the rules. I just apply them. 

[M forever]

To offer an opinion in a public forum, is to invite others' reflections upon your opinion.

Right?

Yes. But in many cases, peoples' "opinions" are not actually based on their own reflections, they don't like others to reflect on them.

That was actually really well said, I have to say. 

Right?

[M forever]

Yes indeed it is, VW at his most visionary, and him making use of some of those characteristic intervals that identify him. I've also heard the Boult- I had his LP cycle in my possession once, but got to know it from the Previn LP, along with the Ninth- he has real feeling for these symphonies, more than most Englishmen.

But then, according to you, most Englishmen are philosophically and sexually repressed and totally rotten anyway, so what do you care?

[M forever]

I think Luke is right that the wind machine was intended to represent inhuman nature and not just the sound of the wind, and the resemblance of the wind machine sound to the wind doesn't invalidate that. He wasn't obliged to use a car horn to avoid some nonexistent confusion (let's try a car horn and see what that suggests).

A car horn is mimicking a man-made object (namely, a car horn) and suggests human activity, specifically, of course, crowded traffic (as in "An American in Paris"). It would be entirely unsuitable in that context. Did scarpia compare that to the wind machine? Which is a man-made object, too, but one which does not mimick human activity. If he used that as an example, I have to adjust the score from3:0 to 4 for Mr O and, still, 0 for scarpia.

Now all "sea music" you hear in films sounds like RVW, and almost never like La Mer.

That's because at sea, the English almost always won.