Vaughan Williams's Veranda

[scarpia]

Thanks for sharing. I remember my own first hearings of these symphonies. My reactions were somewhat similar. While I do not dispute the "uniformity of mood" of the 5th, I don't feel it as a drawback, nor do I think the structure is necessarily lacking. The 5th seems to be deliberately static, and I have no problem with that.

The 4th I think is VW's best and one of the great 20th-c. symphonies, period. At first hearing it sounded like a dense unfriendly wall of sound, but I stuck with it. My first recording was Previn's (which is a bit too harsh and monochrome), but I later found better renderings (Bernstein and, so far my favorite, Berglund - non-UK conductors seem to excel with this piece).

My general impression of the 4th as a symphony is positive, although Haitink doesn't please me in this one.  I also have Hickox's LSO recording for Chandos which I expect to listen to soon.  I'm confused b y your comment about Berglund and non-UK orchestras.  I though Berglund recorded it with the Royal Philharmonic.

Also, I've just listened to the 3rd symphony, again Haitink.  This one I find quite dull and I don't think it is Haitink's fault.  There is some splendid music in the finale which seems to foreshadow the mood of the 5th symphony.  But overall I find the piece quite dull.  Why are four movements necessary which project the same mood?  Four movements marked Moderato?  A symphony should have contrasts, I don't want four movements of moderato, one is enough.  (I'm having flashbacks to Shostakovich's five movements of Adagio).

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

  I'm confused b y your comment about Berglund and non-UK orchestras.  I though Berglund recorded it with the Royal Philharmonic.

Which is why I said "non-UK conductors," not "non-UK orchestras."

The 4th really started to make sense to me when I realized VW was following the template of LvB 5 extremely closely - it's almost like a parody of the former symphony.

I have had similar problems with the 3rd. VW fans seem to rate it highly, though.

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

  (I'm having flashbacks to Shostakovich's five movements of Adagio).

You referring to the 15th Quartet? It's actually six movements of Adagio. I love that piece 

[karlhenning]

Why are four movements necessary which project the same mood?  Four movements marked Moderato?  A symphony should have contrasts, I don't want four movements of moderato, one is enough.  (I'm having flashbacks to Shostakovich's [six] movements of Adagio).

There are other means of contrast than just range of tempo;  and why so proud of your lack of discernment of the subtle changes of mood in the Vaughan Williams and Shostakovich?

You would have been at Rembrandt's shoulder, How about a flash of color for a change?

[scarpia]

There are other means of contrast than just range of tempo;  and why so proud of your lack of discernment of the subtle changes of mood in the Vaughan Williams and Shostakovich?

I will confess to a lack of discernment of subtle changes of mood.  Tempo is not my main objection.  Sitting through 30 minutes of music before the first recognizable "forte" passage is heard overtaxes my patience.   

You would have been at Rembrandt's shoulder, How about a flash of color for a change?

Good point!  Probably Rembrandt was too cheep to spring for expensive pigments.

[karlhenning]

Sitting through 30 minutes of music before the first recognizable "forte" passage is heard overtaxes my patience.   

Well, that is a forthright statement, and can't be argued with.

Myself, I have no trouble with a sustained arc of relatively muted dynamic range.  This, too, is a kind of tension.  With which point, I think your overtaxed patience is a mode of agreement.

[scarpia]

Myself, I have no trouble with a sustained arc of relatively muted dynamic range.  This, too, is a kind of tension.  With which point, I think your overtaxed patience is a mode of agreement.

Having listened to the piece again, I realized that the third movement "scherzo" made no impression at all the first time through.  There is some loud music there, some nice passages for brass but Haitink and the Abbey Road recording crew don't really bring it out very well.  It is the first two movements that struck me as unsatisfying muted.  However, the main source of my dissatisfaction is the fact that the truly splendid passages in this symphony don't develop into something I can figuratively sink my teeth into.  It seems whenever Vaughan Williams conceives of something truly awe inspiring, he feels it must quickly dissolve in to an extended passage for solo flute, pianissimo, or worse.  Case in point, the glorious passage near the end of the finale of the Symphony, which evaporates, leaving us with that demented voice tootling in the distance.  Big let down. 
 

[Mark G. Simon]

  Case in point, the glorious passage near the end of the finale of the Symphony, which evaporates, leaving us with that demented voice tootling in the distance.  Big let down. 

That glorious passage is the culminating point of the whole symphony, and it is a strongly moving one, as you will see as the symphony sinks in. Think of these famous lines as you listen to it:

IN FLANDERS FIELDS the poppies blow
Between the crosses row on row,
That mark our place; and in the sky
The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard amid the guns below.

This is the kind of pasture RVW is thinking of in his Pastoral Symphony. Already the piece is growing on you. Keep listening.

[scarpia]

That glorious passage is the culminating point of the whole symphony, and it is a strongly moving one, as you will see as the symphony sinks in. Think of these famous lines as you listen to it:

I did not fail to notice that the passage in question is the culminating point of the entire symphony.   My problem with Vaughan Williams is the way he structures his symphonies.  If it had ended with that passage, swelling to a grand cadence, maybe something along the lines of Sibelius 7, or even Vaughan Williams 9, I would be happy.  Why does that passage (and almost every analogous passage in V-W) have to fade to some to some hushed, pianissimo thing, probably with a solo flute or viola, which you will all explain to me is the most profound music imaginable, but which I have never actually heard because it is so soft that every time I try to listen to it is drowned out by the crickets outside my window?  As Stravinsky said, "Too many pieces of music finish too long after the end."

[drogulus]

Also, I've just listened to the 3rd symphony, again Haitink.  This one I find quite dull and I don't think it is Haitink's fault.  There is some splendid music in the finale which seems to foreshadow the mood of the 5th symphony.  But overall I find the piece quite dull.  Why are four movements necessary which project the same mood?  Four movements marked Moderato?  A symphony should have contrasts, I don't want four movements of moderato, one is enough.  (I'm having flashbacks to Shostakovich's five movements of Adagio).

     It took me some time to get this one. This is a kind of daring move, IMO, a symphony with muted dynamics throughout. I think it's a triumph. Perhaps Haitink doesn't really capture it.

[karlhenning]

     It took me some time to get this one. This is a kind of daring move, IMO, a symphony with muted dynamics throughout. I think it's a triumph.

I agree.

Perhaps Haitink doesn't really capture it.

Actually, I think he brings a good cool to the piece;  this was the first Haitink/RVW recording I ever heard, and I fell for it big.

[drogulus]

     

     I'm pretty happy with Adrian Hateful Boult and the New Hateful Philharmonia. 

     In fact I think this may be the best of the Boult/EMI set, particularly for the 3rd. In part this is because as good as the LPO is with Vaughan Williams, the Philharmonia, new or otherwise, is just plain better. They are a terrific Vaughan Williams orchestra. If you go through all the Boult/EMIs you'll find again and again the complete mastery of Vaughan Williams they show.

     The Lark Ascending, Norfolk Rhapsody No. 1, and In the Fen Country:

     

     Symphonies No. 4 & 6:

     

     And under Barbirolli Symphony No. 5:

     

     And the Tallis Fantasia:

     



     

[scarpia]

I will profess no love for those Boult recordings.  The Barbirolli recordings are superb, and it saddens me that there is so little of his V-W on record, only Symphonies 2 and 5 in studio, stereo recordings (that I am aware of).

[vandermolen]

I will profess no love for those Boult recordings.  The Barbirolli recordings are superb, and it saddens me that there is so little of his V-W on record, only Symphonies 2 and 5 in studio, stereo recordings (that I am aware of).

The EMI set was originally planned to be split betrween Boult and Barbirolli but Barbirolli's death in 1970 prevented that. He had only recorded 2 and 5, so a decision was made for Boult to record the whole lot with two orchestras. Previn's was the first set with a single orchestra (LSO)

If I could only have one set it would be Boult's earlier Decca series, made with VW in the studio or, in the case of No 9, recorded a few hours after the composer's death.

[The new erato]

I notice that Hyperion have boxed their 4 discs of Choral Works under Martin Best at a very reasonable price. Any views on these versions?

[Guido]

Have just discovered that we're doing Symphony no.1 in our college orchestra this term - this is the only one I haven't yet listened to, but it seems to be regularly seen as the weakest of the nine by folks around here. Still, I'm looking forward to it.

[lukeottevanger]

Have just discovered that we're doing Symphony no.1 in our college orchestra this term - this is the only one I haven't yet listened to, but it seems to be regularly seen as the weakest of the nine by folks around here. Still, I'm looking forward to it.

It may be the weakest, or (obviously) the least like mature VW, but it's still a great work, ambitious, sweeping, and penetrating. It explores a sometimes Parry-an (Parrian? Parry-ian? - Parry-like!) direction that VW didn't really take much further, but on those terms it is pretty much completely successful.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

It may be the weakest, or (obviously) the least like mature VW, but it's still a great work, ambitious, sweeping, and penetrating. It explores a sometimes Parry-an (Parrian? Parry-ian? - Parry-like!) direction that VW didn't really take much further, but on those terms it is pretty much completely successful.

Parry-esque... 

[vandermolen]

I notice that Hyperion have boxed their 4 discs of Choral Works under Martin Best at a very reasonable price. Any views on these versions?

I really like these four CDs which I had collected separately (Hyperion very kindly sent me the box free to put them in, Naxos refused with their VW symphonies box...the small companies are always more generous). Anyway, I wouldn't hesitate. The CD with Serenade to Music on is very highly regarded (although I do not care much for the work itself). I love the incidental music for Pilgrim's Progress (a radio version) with John Gielgud, Dona Nobis Pacem is a deeply felt but rather smaller scale than usual version. The CD with Shepherds of the Delectable Mountains, Magnificat, A Song of Thanksgiving etc on is the best of all.

A great collection and good value in its new format.

[karlhenning]

It includes the Mass in G Minor?