Vaughan Williams's Veranda

[karlhenning]

I wonder if this is part of the problem for VW. The 20th century was overloaded with fine symphonies from a bunch of composers, and the sad fact is that there's not room in orchestral schedules (or money in orchestral budgets) to do them all justice.

That's it, in a nutshell;  and of course there was less oxygen in the room for the 'musical traditionalists' of the 20th century because of the justifiable demands of the (broadly considered) avant-garde.

All the claims of all the divers kinds of music are justified, to be sure.  Thus, the problem (and the "problem" is also a largesse for which we are all grateful) is that there is more compositional supply than the [orchestral] programming-&-performing pipeline could (or can) accomodate.

At least VW does get some attention - his symphonies show up occasionally on programs in the US, and even in continental Europe (I remember that shortly after I moved from Prague, the CzPO played the 6th Symphony - too bad I missed it). And of course the recording companies have done an admirable job.

Indeed, and the point is that the sustained quality of his work commands the attention.  Vaughan Williams is not a "minor talent."

[scarpia]

Indeed, and the point is that the sustained quality of his work commands the attention.  Vaughan Williams is not a "minor talent."

I can't say that anyone here is qualified to determine that Vaughan Williams is a "minor talent" or that he "commands attention," for that matter.   He tends to command my attention, then I regret it.
   

[lukeottevanger]

I can't say that anyone here is qualified to determine that Vaughan Williams is a "minor talent" or that he "commands attention," for that matter.   He tends to command my attention, then I regret it.
   

I have a feeling this post could have a similar effect on me, so perhaps I'll leave it to better minds to discuss. 

[karlhenning]

I have a feeling this post could have a similar effect on me, so perhaps I'll leave it to better minds to discuss. 

0:)

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

For me, composers can be divided into three groups.  There are "the greats" who write pieces which I can listen to, beginning to end, with rapt attention, "the minors" (also know as "good part composers") who produce some good passages spaced by dross, and the ignorable ones which don't fascinate me at all.  I'm afraid V-W is decidedly on my minor list, which is a shame because the good parts can be very good, although sparsely distributed.

I can't say that anyone here is qualified to determine that Vaughan Williams is a "minor talent".

[scarpia]

I was referring to my personal interest in V-W.  If he is of minor interest to me, I don't take for granted that he must be a minor talent, in general.  (In particular, I said he was on my minor list, not the minor list).

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

I was referring to my personal interest in V-W.  If he is of minor interest to me, I don't take for granted that he must be a minor talent, in general.  (In particular, I said he was on my minor list, not the minor list).

Of course. It is a very subtle distinction. You must excuse me if I sometimes got the impression you were a bit lax in observing it whenever some ('foaming-at-mouth') 'fans' here didn't completely agree with your, granted, very personal assessment of RVW's merits. That's all.

[scarpia]

Of course. It is a very subtle distinction. You must excuse me if I sometimes got the impression you were a bit lax in observing it whenever some ('foaming-at-mouth') 'fans' here didn't completely agree with your, granted, very personal assessment of RVW's merits. That's all.

In the future I'll have my posts vetted by the legal department.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

In the future I'll have my posts vetted by the legal department.

Excellent. You can't be too careful. 

[Christo]

I know that a West Coast American orchestra conducted by a Frenchman performing a VW symphony proves nothing

Except good taste. 

[M forever]

Your line
...
is disingenuousness, because (of course) I never suggested any such thing, and it's also nothing to do with the point.

Do you always have to try to take the moral high ground when you run out of arguments? That gets a little tedious. There is absolutely nothing about my "line" that is "disingenuous". What I said there is true. I am beginning to suspect that although you may play the piano a little, you don't have much actual performing experience, certainly not on the professional level. How these things work seems to be a bit of a mystery to you. Your idea that VW isn't performed much outside of Britain because somehow a "tradition" was never started there is complete nonsense. Sibelius, for instance, used to be not played very much in Germany, but now his music is played much more often. The lack of some kind of "tradition" didn't hinder that.

[Dundonnell]

Except good taste. 

Of course

[drogulus]

Do you always have to try to take the moral high ground when you run out of arguments? That gets a little tedious. There is absolutely nothing about my "line" that is "disingenuous". What I said there is true. I am beginning to suspect that although you may play the piano a little, you don't have much actual performing experience, certainly not on the professional level. How these things work seems to be a bit of a mystery to you. Your idea that VW isn't performed much outside of Britain because somehow a "tradition" was never started there is complete nonsense. Sibelius, for instance, used to be not played very much in Germany, but now his music is played much more often. The lack of some kind of "tradition" didn't hinder that.

     This is a stupid argument, really. What's the difference between not having a tradition of performance and not being performed? Not that I'm blaming you entirely, M, just that however it got started it doesn't seem to go anywhere. If you want a tradition you play the music and if you play it for some time you have a tradition. It will probably be idiomatic, too. Does it really make sense to say that a composer is not played because there's no tradition?

[scarpia]

     This is a stupid argument, really. What's the difference between not having a tradition of performance and not being performed? Not that I'm blaming you entirely, M, just that however it got started it doesn't seem to go anywhere. If you want a tradition you play the music and if you play it for some time you have a tradition. It will probably be idiomatic, too. Does it really make sense to say that a composer is not played because there's no tradition?

M's point seems clear enough for me.  O. is making the excuse that V-W is not widely played because there is no "tradition" and M is pointing out that orchestras around the world were quite capable of generating a "tradition" when they and/or their patrons were interested in the music. 

I was curious if my anecdotal impression of V-W being rarely heard outside of Britten is really true.  I paged through the San Francisco Symphony's current schedule.  No V-W orchestral music at all, although their chamber ensemble is performing a few folk-song transcriptions.  It's not that they are fixated on Mozart and Beethoven.  Lots of concerts that feature music by V-W contemporaries, including Ravel, Stravinsky, Strauss, Shostakovich, etc. 

[Dundonnell]

M's point seems clear enough for me.  O. is making the excuse that V-W is not widely played because there is no "tradition" and M is pointing out that orchestras around the world were quite capable of generating a "tradition" when they and/or their patrons were interested in the music. 

I was curious if my anecdotal impression of V-W being rarely heard outside of Britten is really true.  I paged through the San Francisco Symphony's current schedule.  No V-W orchestral music at all, although their chamber ensemble is performing a few folk-song transcriptions.  It's not that they are fixated on Mozart and Beethoven.  Lots of concerts that feature music by V-W contemporaries, including Ravel, Stravinsky, Strauss, Shostakovich, etc. 

I am sorry if you missed my previous post regarding the San Francisco Symphony Orchestra and the forthcoming performance of VW's 4th Symphony.
However, to assist you-

http://www.sfsymphony.org/season/Event.aspx?eventid=27352

I will accept that the management of the SFO do seem to think that the Poulenc Organ Concerto should receive higher billing!

(Oh..and can I respectfully remind you that the country is (Great) 'Britain' not 'Britten'. The latter spelling is that of the composer Benjamin Britten.)

[M forever]

     This is a stupid argument, really. What's the difference between not having a tradition of performance and not being performed? Not that I'm blaming you entirely, M, just that however it got started it doesn't seem to go anywhere. If you want a tradition you play the music and if you play it for some time you have a tradition. It will probably be idiomatic, too. Does it really make sense to say that a composer is not played because there's no tradition?

I don't think it make sense to say that at all. That was my point. But that's what Mr O said.

It will probably be idiomatic, too.

Not necessarily. In fact, there is a lot of "standard" repertoire played by orchestras in many places in ways which are clearly not whatever "idiomatic" may be. One thing doesn't have that much to do with the other. Correspondingly, it is definitely possible for a good conductor and orchestra or ensemble or group to tackle music which they don't normally play but still get it "right", obviously depending on their abilities and stylistical undestanding and all that. But often, we have it that people assume there must be something "idiomatic" about performances given by the "usual suspects" and something "unidiomatic" about performances given by people not that familiar with the music.

Remember the post here by sound 67 in which he said Barbirolli's recording of a VW symphony was not so good because the orchestra (SOBR) "didn't understand the idiom" or something like that (despite being led by someone who clearly did)? But when I asked what that actually means in musical terms, he replied with personal attacks and by evading an answer, and none of you other experts here could explain what that actually is either. Which doesn't mean all that doesn't exist and this particular or any other performance can not be "unidiomatic". But it is still unclear what that is supposed to mean when it comes to that music.

[scarpia]

I am sorry if you missed my previous post regarding the San Francisco Symphony Orchestra and the forthcoming performance of VW's 4th Symphony.
However, to assist you-

http://www.sfsymphony.org/season/Event.aspx?eventid=27352

I will accept that the management of the SFO do seem to think that the Poulenc Organ Concerto should receive higher billing!

(Oh..and can I respectfully remind you that the country is (Great) 'Britain' not 'Britten'. The latter spelling is that of the composer Benjamin Britten.)

Oooops, missed that one. 

Anyway, listened to the symphony #2 today.  Episodic, but a lot more entertaining than some of the other V-W I've been listening to.  One noteworthy part is the dramatic statement of the folk-song-like theme towards the end of the first movement.  Beautiful sonorities, but is there more to it than triadic harmony with very widely spaced voicing for full orchestra?

[lukeottevanger]

Just saw this.

Do you always have to try to take the moral high ground

No, it's just the natural place for me. You ought to try it up here  0:)

when you run out of arguments?

Given the impotent, angry flailing-around that you tend to indulge in when you realise that you've been speaking rubbish, I think the moral high-ground's a preferable place to be. However, I haven't run out of arguments here - I simply think you didn't quite [want to] understand.

That gets a little tedious.

Dreadfully sorry. It's terrible when the tone of one's posts become boring and predictable to others, don't you agree?

There is absolutely nothing about my "line" that is "disingenuous".

Oh, but there is, M. You are the reigning monarch of disingenuity - it's to be seen in the vast majority of your pronouncements on this board, and everyone knows it. It was disingenuous, in this case, to pretend that I was talking about a lack of performance material being the reason for the comparative scarcity of performances of VW abroad, even though I never said anything even remotely connected to this - and thus at one and the same time to ignore what I was really saying, pretend you've answered an argument, and paint me as someone who doesn't understand simple questions of sheet music availability. You're very good at it, M, but don't pretend you don't indulge in it. That's a mind of meta-disingenuity, and it won't wash.

What I said there is true. I am beginning to suspect that although you may play the piano a little, you don't have much actual performing experience, certainly not on the professional level. How these things work seems to be a bit of a mystery to you.

Oh, but I don't believe I ever pretended otherwise. I'm not a professional performer, though I am a professional musician and know perfectly well 'how these things work'. But actually I don't agree with the fundamental premise underlying this - I don't think being a performer is the be-all and end-all of musical experience, and it's another example of your disingenuousness that you like to imply that it is. For instance, when the other day you wheeled out that tired old cliche of a depictions of practical, battle-hardened orchestral performers v. ivory-tower, head-in-the-clouds composers.

OTOH, it's becoming increasingly clear to me that whilst you've been a professional bassist in your time - I believe you've coyly mentioned it once or twice - and whilst you have a very good ear, a deep knowledge of bass technique and orchestras/conductors/orchestral recordings, your purely musical comprehension is seemingly very weak (or at least, you've scarcely ever demonstrated any...I think I remember a post about Sibelius that whilst it didn't say anything new or thought-provoking was quite nicely put) and your ability to talk about music outside the central orchestral repertoire (you know, that chamber/solo/sung stuff) is non-existent. This, by the way, and nothing else, was the reason why your refusal to give an opinion on my compositions left me pretty unperturbed - your opinions on music itself, as opposed to recordings, hold very little weight with me, as in that respect you've never demonstrated the kind of listening skills that some others here have in spades.

Your idea that VW isn't performed much outside of Britain because somehow a "tradition" was never started there is complete nonsense. Sibelius, for instance, used to be not played very much in Germany, but now his music is played much more often. The lack of some kind of "tradition" didn't hinder that.

Seems you simply had comprehension difficulties, M. Sibelius used not to be played very much in Germany - there was no tradition - now he is, and there is. That hasn't happened for VW, and though it may slowly  become the case, I don't see that the present cultural climate is particularly conducive to such things. That's all.

Well, as I said at the top - I just saw this, as I'd been away for a few days. And, guess what, I didn't miss GMG at all, I enjoyed being with my kids and not feeling guilty for turning to the computer when I should be with them. I return to find M still festering in his bile - still angry at having publicly unRavelled, perhaps, or who knows what else. And I realise that I don't really need it, that life is a lot sweeter away from those who obviously have their own personal, pathological 'issues'

For that reason - because of M, and because of a few others - I'm going to deregister from GMG now, without bitterness and without pique, but just because a few days away makes me remember how much better it is not to be tied to the keyboard arguing over things I'm not even that wedded to with people who really don't care but just have a need to argue about something, anything. There are some wonderful people here with whom I wish to stay in touch - but if life is sweeter without the less wonderful ones, why stay? 

[karlhenning]

. . . For that reason - because of M, and because of a few others - I'm going to deregister from GMG now, without bitterness and without pique, but just because a few days away makes me remember how much better it is not to be tied to the keyboard arguing over things I'm not even that wedded to with people who really don't care but just have a need to argue about something, anything. There are some wonderful people here with whom I wish to stay in touch - but if life is sweeter without the less wonderful ones, why stay? 

Luke's musical insights and generous warmth will be missed here, in particular, but I suspect he would not want this thread in M[othballs] Forever.

[Dundonnell]

Luke's musical insights and generous warmth will be missed here, in particular, but I suspect he would not want this thread in M[othballs] Forever.

Ho Ho